Good post.
However, in last 36 hours Macron & Merkel have finally woken up.
Their loan plan for States hit hard by Covid-19 is dead & is now a €500bn grant backed by Eurobinds. Namely all the EU have to pay back together from central funds.
Macron wanted €1trillion. Merkel can get away with only half that.
Austria is complaining but then who cares.
Fact is Hungary & Poland are getting close to being technically kicked out, Italians were asking what istgepoint so they had to act.
It marks a possible turning point in the project and possible change.
Question.
Chlorinated or Antibiotic resistance?
And, at £3.99 a kg is that the most likely import? Surely bulk grain floods are more likely
As should be known, I used to be pro-European but switched after Greece. The charge I made at the time was that when push comes to shove, the EU doesn’t give a shit about the citizens, only the project.
It created a conflicting moment for me. I’d never felt as much a European, giving a shit about a country on the fringes of the union. At the same time, this was the first ever time I found myself against the EU after being a keen supporter.
I will give the EU some dues. I’m a programmer. I work in Liverpool. This city would not have had a digital sector without EU money.
That was all fine. No push had come to shove.
Greece was the first big test. The EU has had many more, including Brexit, Catalonia and COVID.
Has it gotten any better at being effective when push comes to shove?
I would have voted leave.
Yes the benefits made that seem insane.
But Ilike you I had seen that it was for the project not the people and that Social Democracy was utterly not a British thing. As the project grew it was a worse fit.
Government used to be a calling.
Now it’s a profit opportunity
I hate to come back to this, but they take the piss because they know they can… they know that they can lie to the people and the just enough will accept it to keep them in their seats… it was proven through Cummings manipulation of the media’s and facts first over Brexit, then the subsequent elections.
For some reason, a large swathe of the British people seem not to think for themselves or don’t give a shit. They simply don’t question the obvious lies spouted by these arseholes, either through ignorance or simply because they don’t want to as it means they can do as they please… just witness the ridiculous numbers congregating on beaches and parks over the weekend not giving a fuck…
Our country has many things in common with the US… leadership that is morally corrupt and dangerously ignorant and self serving, and a population with just enough too fucking stupid to notice… I know I am not meant to criticise the ‘smart’ electorate for fear of being labelled an intellectual snob or some such like, but can someone please offer me an alternative of why a majority seem happy to keep These cunts in power? (And please let’s not suggest because the opposition handed it to them… that is a falsehood)
If brexit had happened when it ought to have, we very likely wouldn’t have a conservative government now. The tories were the only credible party running in the last election on a clear and simple platform of enacting brexit. That’s the reason they won, not because the public think boris and his crew are fantastic statesmen. It should never have come to this, and remainers are to blame for it.
Sorry, easy cop out… in last election more folks voted for parties open to a second vote, so how can you say that option was wrong? The first past the post fucked it, and folks up North believing BS that Brexit would cure all their woes…
A majority wanted us out. A slim majority, but a majority nevertheless. The minority wouldn’t accept that, and obfuscated to the point of absurdity. Even if we’d held a second referendum, the result would almost certainly have been the same. That last election should never have been needed.
So no, blaming remain for the current government is not a cop out.
… sorry, again you miss the very obvious point… no remainers (or very few) votesd for this bunch of clowns) Brexiteers voted them in… a much more logical and accurate conclusion is that Brexiteers are responsible, given the definitions of democracy and all that…
There were a small number (with big impact given FPTP) that switched from their traditional voting patterns (I won’t say beliefs as anyone one who switched to these more extreme right wingers can not ever have been a true labour supporter) because they placed the lies of Brexit (fears on immigration, the EU being responsible for impact if the 10 years of austerity etc) ahead of how they normally voted. Given how easily they switched political ‘allegiance’ it would be impossible to to suggest they voted Brexit out of some deep rooted socialist principles)
Now that was their democratic choice, but you cannot blame other parties and other voters for staying true to their own principles and expecting the parties they followed to reflect that.
Yes Labours position was driven by confusion, but with 3/4 of their normal support being Remain, that was not surprising. The problem, if anything was that there was no Single party representing the remain vote… unlike UKIP standing down once the Tories declared for Brexit completely… Remainers and soft brexiteer voters were split…
So sorry, but blaming Remainers for these cunts IS a cop out. A Tory/right wing shift was inevitable the day the country voter Brexit… as many pointed out at the time,
Labour had the best shot at proper left-wing power with corbyn that they’d had since kinnock, so don’t give me that. The failure to quickly enact the referendum result caused three years of complete logjam in parliament, and now you’re complaining that we weren’t prepared for a pandemic, lmfao. And you’re the one missing the obvious point that had the vote been respected, boris wouldn’t have had a chance to run on a pro-brexit ticket in yet another election that simply shouldn’t have happened.
Primarily, the ones in parliament who blocked every attempt at legislation to enact brexit.
Fwiw, I’m not trying to blame remainers in general for this or anything else, just responding to mot’s assertion that it’s all down to brexiteers, which struck me as patently ludicrous.
Not sure brexit was to blame for a rightward shift of the Tories. I would suggest that Labours leftward shift meant that the Tories no longer had to hover around the middle ground.
Now Starmer is in , I suspect Labour will head torwards the middle again and the Tories will follow to protect their position
Where have I said that? I merely stated that the Government are happy lying to us as they know they can get away with it… as proven by Cummings with his lies over Brexit and subsequent general election… YOU then suggested
I then countered - Remaina voters are not responsible for this government was my point
So why drag brexit into it in the first place? Isn’t it time you let go of that lost battle? And I’d argue that remain voters could be viewed as at least partly responsible for this government; as I pointed out earlier, Labour had a decent chance of election with Corbyn. The pointlessly prolonged brexit process scuppered that, and we were treated to yet another rerun of the question supposedly already settled by the referendum.
Incidentally, you mentioned that one of the problems in the last election was that no party ran on a clear unambiguous anti-brexit platform. That isn’t true. The lib dems did precisely that and got absolutely annihilated, even down to the defeat of their party leader.
Because its an excellent example of how lies have contributed to the receptivity for more lies… its a valid and relevant example
First up, Corbyn was in no way a front runner even with a clear brexit position. Secondly, we need to address teh issue of ‘prolonged’ - This is the language of Cummings. he spun the time issue as a negative and seeded scare stories that if out too ages it would be an affront to democracy - Given the serious nature the consequences of getting this wrong, taking time to resolve it should have been a given. Time was wasted because of internal political fighting yes, but the time taken should never have been used as an issue - iT was by Brexiteers such as cummings as he played the ‘getting fed up’ card…
No i suggested that the remain vote was split… and it was. no one trusted the lib dems on anything given their history of cock sucking Tories, and the 'northern ‘socialists’ turned out to be anything but as we saw, again hoodwinked into believing Brexit was the solution to their poverty and woes…
Given COVID-19 and the economic challenges this will bring, would it not be wise for the Government to extend the transition period to make a deal possible and workable? We know Brexit is happening and we have been promised by the Government that they will do all they can to get a good deal with the EU, so why does ‘all we can’ not include and extension to the transition period, especially under such unforeseen circumstances?
Will a Brexiteer please explain how this would be a ‘betrayal’ or an affront to democracy? IF there is meant to be acceptance and moving forward to ensure Brexit works best for us ALL, why the need to risk a no deal during these critical times… it seems at best blinkered and at worst negligent and stupid.