Even the most pro Putin Russian can obviously see this isnât going to plan, and that is putting it mildly.
And even the most radicalised Western ideologue can work out if theyâre being soft-soaped.
Itâs such intellectual dishonesty and Iâm not even blaming the Ukrainians for this one. The high command says quite plainly that they ordered the Azovstal remnant to surrender.
âEvacuatedâ has much more positive connotatinos, evoking non-memories of Dunkirk, etc - perhaps little Ukrainian boats.
Whatâs happened is that theyâve all surrendered and they might get exchanged for Russian POWs. Theyâve all been photographed on the way out and will soon be ammunition for Putinâs war justifications.
I wasnât even mentioning the steel plant but now you do that has been even more or a disaster, if an army canât go into tunnels as itâll lose too many people is resorted to bombing people out and it fails what does that say?
Low morale and poor training?
82 days and the might of the Russian army couldnât get trapped fighters out as they either didnât fancy the fight and the couldnât bomb them out, embarrassing, totally and utterly embarrassing.
Well look, Barry - I donât want to fall out over this - but if we are talking about morale and losses, etc, have a look at those links in sequence and tell me how solid you think the Ukrainian position is.
It is a complete U-Turn on the previous position. Youâve got both The Guardian and the Economic Times reporting on the presence of the Azov battalion. At a stroke, this surrender has made the Ukrainian high command look like idiots, demonstrated that there is at least a kernel of truth in Putinâs claims about neo-Nazis and gives the Russians complete control of the city.
How is the surrender a disaster for Russia?
No it doesnât not at all, how can you possibly sustain a battle from a tunnel with no resupply? You cling onto a siege in a tunnel that has taken 82 days to complete, in that 82 days
Finland and Sweden want to join NATO.
Russian forces are retreating to their borders.
Ukraine will be supplied with arms for as long as they want.
Kharkiv has been retaken
And you think that tunnel will overshadowing the above?
I think itâs an important symbolic victory and an important strategic one too.
Letâs remember that not too long ago, people were making out as if it were some kind of impregnable Cold War wonder of the world, staunchly defended by Ukrainianâs best, whoâd fight to the last man.
Letâs hope that Putin doesnât decide to invade Sweden or Finland before they join NATO, eh? Otherwise we can put that in the loss column too.
Why would Putin want to invade Finland? The Russian already have land from the Finnish thats not theirs, theyâd get their arses kicked as well, the Finnish have never trusted them and rightfully so.
The Finns have the best artillery in Europe, they still have conscription so there is a deep pool of trained soldiers and an airforce equipped with modern F-18s. Not even Putin is that stupid.
I know they have never trusted the Soviets/Russian after their invasion last time and the confiscation of lands. The Russians have treated their neighbours horrifically in the last century.
Holodomor
Deportations of Latvians and Estonians to Siberia
And the invasion of Finland
Hungary
And many many others.
Youâre being very black & white here.
Same thing we accuse bazbot of.
This can be spun as a win, saved the wounded heroes, also gained concessions from the Russians and stopped having to feed/secure a number of prisoners.
Politics is grey. War is a clvsterfvck
I just look at those four links in succession and disagree.
Worth bearing in mind that this is day two since surrender. Lots more information about this situation to come.
Done, it is a possible conclusion.
Now here is another game. Same vein.
I posted Ed Conwayâs tweet on latest news about Gas.
As someone looking for the strings being pulled to look for the puppet masters an interesting conclusion could be made that
Russian Gas dominance is over.
Who now controls the EUs gas supply?
I respect Ed read his Telegraph Economic stuff and that is some good digging offering up plenty of conspiracy ideas and that one supports your Putin was stitched up feelings.
Its also a good flag waving one Brits rule
Itâs got nothing to do with conspiracy. It is about Ukraineâs leaders not being credible with the things they say. Can you imagine being one of the front line Ukrainian forces knowing how Azovstal went down? Would you believe Zelenskiy if he told you that he had your back?
Iâd trust Zelensky over Putin, that is all I need to know, theyâre politicians Pap of course they lie.
George Bush Senior. Read my lips.
Yep
No way will Turkey block it, thereâll be some deals but they wonât stand, for a start the Kurds should be given a homeland.
I agree about the Kurds getting a homeland. The Turks donât and will likely want proscription of Kurdish political lobbies in return.