Nope. But they will kill 14,000 people in a civil war when the other side is seeking self-determination.
Isnât that what youâre asking for Ukraine?
No, Russia instigated unrest in the region as Ukraine was pulling out of their sphere of influence, Ukraine didnât want to be a client state.
Oldest trick in the book, also have the Ukrainians killed 14,000 in the Donbas? Can you show me a credible link? I think youâll find there has also been shelling on both sides, if the Donbas wasnât backed by Russia then it wouldnât have been an issue, the fact is and remains Russia invaded and annexed Crimea and supports a breakaway republics in Eastern Ukraine as it canât wholly control Ukraine.
History will look upon Russia as a imperialist aggressor and Putin as a tyrant, no two ways about it and the horrendous losses their military are taking are a sad tale of Russians not caring about their citizens.
Same argument applies to the two republics.
Why is self-determination okay for Ukraine, but not okay for the self-proclaimed republics who donât want to be part of Ukraine?
Oh, as for your request.
Can you explain why anyone should treat you credibly or answer your questions when you obviously canât be arsed to lift your finger a millimetre off your ringpiece to do some basic research?
So 14,000 have died? Not 14,000 Ukrainians who are in the breakaway area funded by the Russians? If youâre going to quote things make sure theyâre correct, Iâd say a total of deaths is 14,000 to help you.
This is wrong Pap according to your above posts, reality and also fact.
Youâve not answered my question. Why should anyone treat you credibly and answer your questions when you refute peopleâs claims without bothering to verify them yourself?
Why?
Self determination can only come from a ballot box Pap, not invasion, even you should know this.
Yes, both of those regions held referendums against Russian advice, overwhelmingly choosing independence.
Whatâs your problem again?
No they didnât, they werenât independently verified open and fair elections.
Try again.
Neither was the process to oust the President in 2014, but that doesnât seem to matter.
Youâre out of road Barry. Youâre now saying that even though those people self-determined things for themselves, someone else had to allow it.
Whataboutery Pap, the uprising happened as the puppet turned his back on a deal, surely you know this?
Oh and on self determination? I have already told you many times if Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk vote for it in open elections then fair play, you canât deny people their right to self determination, same goes for Ukraine in repelling the invading Russia.
Youâre the one out of road Pap.
I will try again. Why should anyone treat you credibly or answer your questions when it seems you wonât lift a finger a millimetre above your ringpiece to do some basic research.
Itâs not been a good day for you Barry. If you want whattabouttery, have a look at your self-confessed ignorance. What about that then? And as usual, I have far better things to do with the rest of a lovely day than this.
Thanks for your contributions today. They were simultaneously hilarious and forever self-damning. I have great admiration for your work.
Of course there has been shelling from both sides, this has been going on for eight years, but 85 per cent of of the casualties and deaths have been borne by the ethnic Russians on the receiving end in which, letâs be honest here, has been an under the radar, but in plain sight for anyone who is honest enough to look upon it without prejudice, a nearly decade long ethnic cleansing exercise. The Russian state was backed into a corner, a couple of days before the invasion Putin spoke to Biden and asked if the Minsk agreement, signed in good faith eight years before, which would address the situation in the East of Ukraine would be implemented. He was dismissed out of hand. Note, its not Ukraine calling the shots here, its the US, who have spent at least 10 years, and countless millions of bucks to get us where we are now. Ukraine is rich in resources, which are much coveted, its about hegemony.
Only children and simpletons believe that we are where we are today because its all happened in a vacuum, Putin is a âfascist cuntâ, (he may well be), who woke up one morning and out of the blue, for no reason at all, went mad and decided to invade Ukraine. Make no mistake, to all intents and purposes this a war between NATO and Russia, and has been from the start, it is the inevitable culmination of over ten years of American interference in the internal affairs of countries on a continent thousands of miles away, as per usual. None of the pain, no refugees turning up on their shores a few years down the line. They are quite happy to carry on arming Ukraine, announced yesterday 500 billion more, they are more than happy to fight this down to the last Ukrainian. Surely any student of modern history knows this, its hardly a secret, its what they do, and have been doing ever since I was a teenager. We have Boris Johnson reportedly âinstructing Zelenskeyâ not to negotiate with Russia. Instructing?! Boris Johnson? Laughable.
Does anybody seriously believe that the US, the Pentagon and the UK establishment poodles who are supporting this war, financing and arming it, fortunes being made from it, with the inevitable slaughter that war brings are doing it for altruistic reasons, because they want to safeguard peopleâs democratic rights? Come on! It would be a first, since WW2 anyway.
President Eisenhower, who led the US forces in WW2, foretold and warned about this, they were wise words then and still are today. As are the words of USA senior naval commander who got himself into a lot of trouble in the 1950âs I forget his name, when he said something along the lines of, 'We fought the first World War in Europe, we fought the second World War in Europe, and if you suckers are stupid enough we will fight the third World War in Europe.
2 Likes
Of course not, do you think only the west has a monopoly on arms sales? Of course they donât and also it cuts both ways, if there is a buyer there is a user.
Its not safeguarding rights its fighting for rights, huge difference.
Globalisation will lead everyone into this.
Of course its a proxy war, are you genuinely surprised? This started in Georgia in 2008 and the west had to let that go, if Ukraine is going to be split against its will then Russia will pay the ultimate cost, that cost is consistent body bags, now western goods, hyperinflation, no holidays, ladas and a return to grey shit times.
Putins choice, the west will win, absolutely no doubt about it and people who think Russia are all powerful now little about history.
At last, we have a list of sources we can trust then:
- Aljazeera
- The Week UK
- France 24
- CNBC
- ABC
- Washington Post
- AP News
@Not_Barry if we use the sites above we can trust what they say and we wonât get pushback.
1 Like
We need to see not Barryâs list of trusted sites then compile a vote of which ones we can use.
1 Like
Escalation
And yet people use whataboutery.
Ooh. Check out the new believer!
Born again.
Born yesterday.
Trusted source as well - be interesting to hear whether the naysayers support these atrocities?