Although I have fallen into the swimming pool on the odd occasion
Brief bit of Internet research done. It would appear that Lavrov’s description of the chemical compound fits the symptoms much better. BZ is an incapacitating compound, apparently. Most people recover from a dose in hours.
Here’s the latest article I could find. Swiss lab declining to comment, apparently. @saint-or-sinner 's linked PDF said that the identity of the chemical was classified.
The silence is the telling think. They can’t admit anything(classified), but they can deny Lavrov’s claim. Have they?
If they cant admit anything, how did Lavrov get the information in the first place? Boris may be a buffoon, but this guy has been peddling bullshit for ages and is part and parcel of a system that feeds disinformation on a daily basis.
Obviously didn’t like the new view from his window…
Lavrov’s words on the subject.
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s address at the 26th Assembly of the Council for Foreign and Defence Policy, Moscow, April 14, 2018
“As you know, in the Skripal case the British specially invited a group of OCSW experts. It was done exclusively in a bilateral manner, it was announced that the others would be informed about the conclusions reached by the group. The report of this group of experts was initially distributed as a summary for public consumption and following that, a detailed and fairly substantial confidential version was distributed to the OPCW members only.
In that report, in accordance with the OPCW way of conduct, the chemical composition of the agent presented by the British was confirmed, and the analysis of samples, as the report states, was taken by the OPCW experts themselves. It contains no names, Novichok or any other. The report only gives the chemical formula, which, according to our experts, points to an agent that had been developed in many countries and does not present any particular secret.
Our colleagues tell us (I have already given examples as I described previous situations) that they have secret data that they cannot share. As you understand, we also have the capacity to obtain confidential information. Since this information concerns issues that are literally connected to death and life, we are not going to keep anything secret. We became aware of this from the Swiss Federal Institute for Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Protection in Spiez. The information was obtained on conditions of confidentiality. On March 27, experts of the Institute completed their study of the samples collected on the site of the incident in Salisbery, in line with OPCW, and sent to them by the OPCW. This laboratory in Spiez, where, I am sure, professional scientists who value their reputation are employed, came to the following conclusions.
I will now be quoting what they sent to the OPCW in their report. You understand that this is a translation from a foreign language but I will read it in Russian, quote: “Following our analysis, the samples indicate traces of the toxic chemical BZ and its precursor which are second category chemical weapons. BZ is a nerve toxic agent, which temporarily disables a person. The psycho toxic effect is achieved within 30 to 60 minutes after its use and lasts for up to four days. This composition was in operational service in the armies of the US, the UK and other NATO countries. The Soviet Union and Russia neither designed nor stored such chemical agents.
Also, the samples indicate the presence of type A-234 nerve agent in its virgin state and also products of its degradation.” According to the specialists’ estimates, the significant concentration of A-234 discovered would have inevitably been lethal, and taking into account its high volatility, the fact that the specialists in the city of Spiez found it in its virgin state and also with high purity and in high concentration, appears to be utterly suspicious, because the period which elapsed between the poisoning and sampling was fairly long – I think, over two weeks. Taking into account that Yulia Skripal and the policeman have already been released from hospital, whereas Sergei Skripal, as the British claim without letting us see either Yulia or Sergei, is still recovering, the clinical pattern corresponds more to the use of a BZ agent. Nothing is said whatsoever about a BZ agent in the final report that the OPCW experts presented to its Executive Council. In this connection we address the OPCW a question about why the information, that I have just read out loud and which reflects the findings of the specialists from the city of Spiez, was withheld altogether in the final document. If the OPCW would reject and deny the very fact that the Spiez laboratory was engaged, it will be very interesting to listen to their explanations.”
Boris may be a buffoon, but this guy has been peddling bullshit for ages and is part and parcel of a system that feeds disinformation on a daily basis.
I know, shocking that he’s allowed to get away with it so regularly. Just look how many times it’s been proven that he’s deliberately lied.
That’s Al Pfeffel for you though.
You have convinced me. The Russians are the good guys and we have nothing to fear from kind, benevolent Putin.
I am no fan of Johnson. I am less of a fan of the current Russian regime.
How did i do that? I have stated more than once that that’s not my belief/aim. I have even asked where anyone had said that. Still waiting.
You’re getting a bit “shrill” now with that last comment, so probably best we leave it be. Although i am wondering how you jumped from “here’s Lavrov’s words and Pfeffel is liar” to your above comment.
Aldous Huxleys words seem appropriate.
“The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe a thing without evidence”.
He also explained a lot about why certain people react in the way you just have. Brave new world and all that(there’s a whole new thread in that, but no one likes talking about it).
I couldnt agree more regarding believing something without evidence. At the moment it would appear that there is a clear lack of hard evidence in public for either side of the argument. Would you agree? Just an awful lot of claims, counter claims and assumptions. I am sorry if you think that I am shrill. I do tend to get a bit agitated when I see Putin and his regime painted as hard done by.
Highlighted bit at the top is confirmed by the later highlighted bits.
You don’t condemn the continued illegal actions(not just provable, but gleefully admitted) of our lot with the same venom, that’s the worry. Unless you believe the lie of the “humanitarian bomb”.
Still waiting for you to show the support for Putin/Russia you claim, although i don’t really understand why i should hate a whole nation and all it’s people(you have at last thankfully stopped blaming the whole of Russia).
Huxley again. He fits just about all of us in and this was almost a hundred years ago. Humans, so predictable it’s embarrassing.
Venom? Interesting use of the word considering the subject of our conversation is poison. Where have I said that you should hate anyone let alone a whole nation? My issue is with Putin’s regime and its history of taking out dissidents and ‘traitors.’ If I haven’t attacked our lot with the same venom as you say, it is because I am surprised to read that anything that ‘our side’ says seems to be immediately discredited or put under suspicion whereas spin from a regime which is seen by many as corrupt (at the very least) is given more credibility. I am not just pointing the finger at you here by the way but an awful lot of people on the internet seem to have become experts on chemical agents overnight! Perhaps, instead of quoting Huxley, you should start quoting Orwell? It is entirely possible that the West have fitted up Putin over the alleged chemical attack and the Salisbury attack, but given the current regime in Russia’s previous history, I remain sceptical about anything coming out of the Kremlin or anything supporting them that doesn’t come from a credible source. I still read stuff from people who believe the world to be flat, that Man did not land on the moon and that two planes did not bring down the Twin Towers. If it is proven with hard evidence that Assad did not use chemical weapons and that Russia, sorry, Putin, was not behind the Salisbury attack, fair play. In the meantime we can all continue with our assumptions and conspiracy theories (and yes, I include myself in this).
Or because the complex of buildings the msm claim as a CW facility produced antidote for snake bites. Given a clean bill of health by the OPCW in November 2017.
Where have I said that you should hate anyone let alone a whole nation?
Every time you say Russia. Look below.
My issue is with Putin’s regime and its history of taking out dissidents and ‘traitors.’
Please list this history(link to some evidence as well).
If I haven’t attacked our lot with the same venom as you say,
Have you even questioned the ever changing account?
it is because I am surprised to read that anything that ‘our side’ says seems to be immediately discredited or put under suspicion
There’s good reason for suspicion. Scary that you can’t see that.
whereas spin from a regime which is seen by many as corrupt (at the very least)
You’re doing it again.
is given more credibility.
By whom(still waiting)? Questioning our government is not endorsement of any other. Do i really have to point this out?
I am not just pointing the finger at you here by the way but an awful lot of people on the internet seem to have become experts on chemical agents overnight!
Where have i or anyone on here even attempted to portray ourselves as such?
Perhaps, instead of quoting Huxley, you should start quoting Orwell?
No, Orwells ideas are not efficient enough. Read Huxley, then B. F Skinner. Why force people when you can get them to believe it’s their own choice?
It is entirely possible that the West have fitted up Putin over the alleged chemical attack and the Salisbury attack,
It is, as it is also possible that Putin or multiple other people ordered it.
but given the current regime in Russia’s previous history,
There’s that word that blames a whole nation again and also the bit that needs some quantifying by yourself.
I remain sceptical about anything coming out of the Kremlin or anything supporting them that doesn’t come from a credible source.
Credible source, such as? I remain sceptical of anything that our government says, because there is ample, verifiable proof, that they have deliberately lied on multiple occasions.
I still read stuff from people who believe the world to be flat, that Man did not land on the moon and that two planes did not bring down the Twin Towers.
Oh dear, why would anyone put those 3 together?
Are you going to call Lynn Margulis a crank? I do hope not.
If it is proven with hard evidence that Assad did not use chemical weapons and that Russia, sorry, Putin, was not behind the Salisbury attack, fair play.
Innocent till proven guilty for our side, but guilty unless they can prove innocent for those dodgy foreigners?
In the meantime we can all continue with our assumptions and conspiracy theories (and yes, I include myself in this).
Assumptions and guessing, yes, conspiracy theories no and i again have to wonder at your choice of words.
So instead of worrying about anyone that questions the official line, ask questions yourself, about anyones version of events. It’s the only chance the people have of finding the truth(yes, the world is waiting for the Sotonian verdict).
Not sure what happened to that post(Mb if you get time, could you sort it out please). I seem as efficient as a Russian poisoner
Edit your post and remove the link to the YouTube video and just paste the link text instead!
I think that if you look back @nottarf-krap pasted a link from the Russian guy Labrov saying that the Swiss place had discredited everything Porton Down and the OPCW had said. No context of doubting what Labrov said.
If i try to post a video using clipboard(the only way I know that works) after i have entered any text, it posts the link in the “original post by” bit. I would then have to delete it all and start again. I’m sure there is a simple solution and the problem is wholey me, but that knowledge doesn’t help my tech deficiencies(that’s a long winded way of saying “help i’m stupid”).
I’ve PM’d @saint-or-sinner about YouTube links, will be much easier when we go to full Discourse
Feck me SoS. You make hypochondriac look like a poodle. I got to the bit where you ask for evidence that Putin’s regime has taken out dissidents and wonder whether you are being serious or just want an argument (the full hour by the look of it)? I really dont know where to start, but maybe we should start with some Russians themselves. There are dissidents (people who live their lives in Russia) who are liking Putin’s regime to the Mafia. The word “Totalitarian Regime” is thrown around liberally by the leader of the (banned) opposition party. Perhaps they are wrong? I suspect that they know more about life under Putin than you or I. Having just watched your clip, thanks for the patronisation and I will leave you to it.