📺 GOOD SHOWS (no capeshit pls)

[Smiler]

I find all the political stuff very frustrating (probably because I think all politicians are following their own agendas rather than their constituents or the country’s best interest), but I do appreciate the fact that discussions on here can be had without people resorting to all the personal insults just because they have different opinions, unlike that other mob. Ok. Not ALL the time, but even so, thank you for at least attempting to act like civilised human beings. I might even hang around long enough to get meself edumacated a little bit more in all the politics

[Goatboy]

Shoes and bags?

[KRG]

Much as I love this place, we really are shite at staying on topic

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

** For sale** : hardly used pants, only one episode of incontinence and stains nearly all came out on a boil wash £0.50 ono

[Bearsy]

pap vs frbl was a GOOD SHOW and I think they had at least one more season in them RIP

[saintbletch]

Lou, if you have the energy and inclination, could you also detail the ways in which you think we (sotonians.com - i.e. me, pap or both) stifled Furball’s ability to debate?

I’d love to know so that a) I can disagree with you or b) learn from my mistakes.

I ask because in my moderation actions (publicly on the Corbyn thread and via PM) I tried to explicitly encourage debate, and discourage personal attacks.

Thanks.

[Bearsy]

I heard ages ago that Corbyn doesn’t brush his teeth regularly, but was afraid to mention it in case I got stifled by pap + beltch.

[Coxford_lou]

Well, if anyone isn’t completely tearing their hair out with boredom over this conversation, here’s my compilation of answers to questions. I’ve tried to edit it down to make it as pain free as possible for those who couldn’t give a monkeys – hopefully I haven’t edited out context.

FATSO: Lou, I’m confused about what you want. Is this site better than swf?

CL: On the whole I prefer it, yes. (Though footie is better on there, but this place just needs time).

FATSO: Were they too right wing?

CL: No such thing as “too” anything. They are what they are. A lot of the opinion on there is depressing to me, but then I signed up to it for the football not for the politics, so I can’t complain. As Turkish once said to me so charmingly “what does the stupid cow expect” (I paraphrase. I’m sure it was worse than that).

FATSO: You’re saying that this site is too left leaning

CL: I’m not saying it’s too left leaning, but I am more invested in this site than I ever was the other, and I’m saying with any political debate, having a strong opposing view is important/a necessity. I get uncomfortable when this site publishes a regular far left view on politics because that’s definitely not for me.

FATSO: But admit to pulling out of debates where your opinion could provide some balance. That doesn’t make sense to me. Chertsey will provide an opinion. I nearly always disagree with his opinion but at least its there.

CL: I got involved plenty in the Corbyn debate, there was just a point where I held back – otherwise it turns into an energy sapping full time job. I’m hardly backward at giving an opinion. Pap and Furball were prepared to invest that extra time in the Corbyn debate, and I found it very interesting. As I said at the time, I thought good effort on both sides – pushed the boundaries a bit, but all in all, good stuff, and I learnt from both perspectives. On Pap’s side – that people are excited about Corbyn more than I realised. On Furbs side, the level of concern and risk with Corbyn. Probably learnt more from reading this debate than I did the papers because this was people’s personal perspectives, rather than the editorial line.

After the debate, I don’t think it’s unfair to say the group consensus was one of irritation towards Furbs for being negative towards Corbyn and rude in the debate. Left me wondering if I was reading the same forum!

FATSO: Ps stating that 90% of the forum is pro Corbyn is conjecture.

CL: You are correct. I was exaggerating for effect.

PAP: If it was a low blow, then as referee, you’d already missed a ton of times when my opponent had hit me below the belt.

CL: The only one I can remember thinking ‘ooh a bit close to the wire there’ was the comment around you leaving the Labour Party so why have you signed up to vote for a leader (or something like that). It was harsh, but it was info you’d already put out there and it was relevant to the debate. The Corbyn Emotional Love Bunnies comment was funny!

PAP: I suspect the realisation that the shit wouldn’t fly over here is probably the main reason he’s left, especially when he can float the same arguments over at TSW and have the support of more than one cheerleader.

CL: I doubt it.

PAP: You’re citing the Corbyn debate as the evidence of why you don’t want to debate, but you’d reached that conclusion way before it ended.

I’m uncomfortable with a lot of the right wing points people make, but the solution is not to sit silently seething, making vague pronouncements that the site is unfit for debate. I generally put forward a competing opinion which hails from my bag of political convictions.

CL: As you know, I put forward plenty of opinion on that debate, as I do other debates. And as I’ve said to you in the pub, there are a few topics that I just don’t want to go there. Mostly because they’re too complex and too nuanced to go into with a group of people who are so far off my viewpoint. I can’t see why that’s a problem. I’m just being open about it (maybe that’s my mistake).

PAP: I cannot see how someone unable to defend his or her own position can simultaneously claim to be defending the principle of debate in general, especially when you’re laying a guilt trip on the “nice squad” that stifled him off the site.

CL: Well, it did stifle the debate. The group got upset en masse. Whether he chose to stay or leave, the manner of the debate was frowned upon, and thus stifled.

PAP: Also, your statement is not helped by the fact that I’ve never seen you disagree with him, even when he has been taking a disagreeable line.

CL: Well then you’ve just missed it. I’ve had a tetchy disagreement with Furball on Saintsweb when his misunderstood something I said (ironically, I was sticking up for you if I remember rightly) and I stood my ground. And over the Pap’s dad situation, where I was one of the first to defend your Dad and say Furbs got it wrong.

Makes me sound like I spend my whole life defending people. I don’t really, I have a hard enough job defending myself!

But, Furbs political point of view is surprisingly pretty damn close to mine. Which is a really rare experience. I NEVER come across people who get where I’m coming from on debates like this. It seems so obvious to me, yet most people don’t see it – whether that’s about my frustration with the far left, or on international politics. I’ve had some energy sapping debates either on forums or in real life over the years, and they are a complete waste of time, and generally just piss people off. But here, for once I had someone putting the same point of view across and be prepared to really debate it, which was great! But unfortunately short lived. I’m sad about that.

PAP: Specifically, I fail to understand the huge double standard whereby he is allowed to smear all Corbyn supporters as certain things, and people that call him up on those tactics are stifling debate.

CL: I guess it’s the one vs many rule. Back against the wall. One person calling a group of people ‘emotional love bunnies’ is less severe than a group of people getting upset with the lone voice. Someone debating their point of view when backed by the group opinion is less challenging than being the lone voice.

GOATBOY: Shoes and bags?

CL: Sexist pig!!

BLETCH: Lou, if you have the energy and inclination, could you also detail the ways in which you think we (sotonians.com - i.e. me, pap or both) stifled Furball’s ability to debate?

CL: Bletch, I’m not a mod, it’s a bloody difficult job. I’ve never had a go at the mods in the other place, because I think it’s a bloody difficult job. But I personally think you jumped the gun and poured cold water unnecessarily over the discussion first time round. I’d have preferred lighter touch moderation. I think the forum as a group then took offence further and used the ‘not nice’ card at Furball to essentially end the debate. I’m the champion of niceness - but not to a point of blandness! It wasn’t Furball’s ability to debate that was stifled (not sure anyone could do that!) but the debate was stifled. People are entitled to react how they please, but I’m still baffled.

Please don’t be annoyed with me, Bletch! I’d rather you told me to stick it up my backside, than sound disappointed with me!

Well, hopefully I’ve covered all angles. As I’ve said before you’re welcome to take it or leave it. I’m gonna take a bit of a break. I’m up to my eyeballs in stuff at the moment, and I’m annoying people on here, so I’m going to not do a Furball, and instead do a Lou, which is to politely retreat from the situation while still smiling (though I might quickly reply to the Russia bombing Syria thread so no one can accuse me of not giving an opinion!).

See you in the pub. GB, you owe me a beer. Bucks, I owe you one.

[Coxford_lou]

Fuck me, that’s an essay!

[Fatso]

I gave you an upvote for the effort you’ve taken to address points made. I am, however, going to have to pull you up on the bit where you say “there’s no such too anything” in response to “are they too right wing”. Without wanting anyone to start going"oooh godwins!", were the nazis too right wing?i think most sane people would say yes. There clearly is a “too anything”, both left and right. I agree people should be allowed to say what they wish, but that doesn’t mean they’re right and yes, there is definitely a “too right wing” just as there is a “too left wing”.

[TheCholulaKid]

Maybe Furbal’s drained. Had too much. On the canvas. He seems to be ignoring a zugzwang ‘over there’ on the ISIS thread from buctootim.

[JBoy]

I just finished the 2nd episode of series 6 of a television drama called AMCs The Walking Dead. It’s a cracker, I’d check it out!

[saintbletch]

Thanks for the response, Lou.

I’m not annoyed, just a little disappointed…

I’d would still like to hear a bit of detail on how you think I stifled the debate, though.

I’ve just spent a few minutes looking back at my contributions on the Corbyn thread, and in the last post I made that might have amounted to stifling the debate, I specifically said that I didn’t want to stifle debate.

ORIGINAL POST

Originally posted by @saintbletch

Boys!

I’ll slap your legs.

Keep debating please , but let’s focus on each other’s views and not each other.

(I’ve now added the bold text, it wasn’t emboldened originally)

I was trying to be even-handed (" Boys!") and, obviously, I hope, trying to keep the debate going.

My confusion with your position, with reference to me stifling the debate, is increased by your reply to me a few posts later when you said:

ORIGINAL POST

Originally posted by @Coxford_lou

Ooh, I like Bletch doing a bit of moderation. Makes it feel like a real forum!

Were you being ironic?

If not then I can’t reconcile your view now?

I’ve checked (albeit briefly) and I don’t believe I ‘interfered’ again on that thread.

I think my sensitivity to the issue actually came from the fact that I didn’t want to get to a situation where Furball stormed off again.

He’d gone once before over pap’s pap’s r-bomb post and I didn’t want him to leave again because I really looked forward to reading his contributions - over a whole host of subjects.

He and I also exchanged a number of PMs, and I hope he doesn’t mind me sharing a little of the tone, but we were both discussing our concerns about the potential problems that might occur when he and pap got into a debate. This result was probably one of the scenarios we jointly had in mind.

Anyway, thanks again for stating your position.

[Polski_Filip]

Back in thge sandpit for a week & just caught up with the start of S2 of The Leftovers.

Now I loved that fist season for the entire wtf is going on vibe it had (yet with great plot & storylines)

S1 Premiered went WAY beyond S1 in seriously wtf is happening-ness.

I suppose switching from Metro New York to some random Cave has relevance to the story, but there simply was no way to get my head around how they went from burying a body in the woods to some Cave Dwellers & a heavily pregnant (Squaw) I would guess being stranded by some mudslide then graphically giving birth…

Anyway it is back and more WHAT IS GOING ON than ever. Just WHY are they in Miracle? Why is the Dead Woman…

Brick round the ankle?

etc etc etc.

Nothing better on telly imho at the moment but if you ain’t seen S1 don’t even TRY to watch an episode!

[Fowllyd]

Fucking hell, Phil, what do you think you’re playing at? That post was on topic, for fuck’s sake.

[Coxford_lou]

Fair go Bletch. I retract the comment about your moderation being heavy handed because clearly that was awesome (no irony intended at all). I was remembering other comments but don’t have the inclination to delve and would prefer to take your general awesomeness on face value. My other points stand

xxx

[Bucks]

Of your last two posts, each of the last lines go to the very heart of what makes you you. You had me at Beer. big hugs x

[Bucks]

Me too, just finished it a few minutes ago, a belting one and I love how they are weaving the episodes together too!

[saintbletch]

Classy Lou. Very classy.

I do take pap’s new values for this place seriously, and I do try to do stuff that helps make / keep this place different. And I really didn’t want to have to ban you for disagreeing with me.

I will push my luck just a little further if I may to suggest that IF the moderation didn’t stifle the debate, then something else made Furball decide not to be around anymore. And that ad he’d done it once before, perhaps he has a wider issue with maintaining his membership here.

I do see the same current left-leaning nature of discussion (not necessarily membership) that you do. I also recognise the challenge that it brings to debates. As others have said though it’s up to the membership to change that from within. It doesn’t happen if people chose not to share their contrary views, or worse do a runner.

We’ll get better at it I’m sure.

Bletch (Generally awesome)

x

PS for the record I agreed with many of Furball’s concerns over Corbyn.

[Bearsy]

Originally posted by @saintbletch

I will push my luck just a little further if I may to suggest that IF the moderation didn’t stifle the debate, then something else made Furball decide not to be around anymore.

It’ll turn out he was receiving too many, or not enough, dick pics, same as every time someone leafs.