Maybe I should have used a winky emoji on that 
(Not aimed @BTripz by the way but triggered by your post) As always its easy to say ‘fuck em’, liberal elite… blah blah, but as has been said, for most folks we will judge ‘Brexit’ on how it impacts on us individually (apart from a few self-righteous folks who would gladly sacrifice their own wellbeing on the alter of some outdated conceptual notions), but its great to point the finger at laughter at their own stupidity for not upping sticks and retiring to Blighty, after all greatest nation on earth so why anyone would want to live anywhere else defies logic…
Problem with that is it’s the attitude as the school bully.
For many, the opportunities represented by freedom of movement was incredibly important. To dismiss this as irrelevant or less important because of some prejudiced view that it will not impact the poor is naive at best… its only the less well off it actually effects, whether already abroad or in terms of future opportunities to live and work and experience life elsewhere.
I wonder how long it will take most Brexiteers to discover something is now directly impacting on their lives in a negative way… the current polls already suggest many already have…
It would be interesting to see numbers of people who actually took the opportunity to travel and work abroad as they saw fit whilst the EU freedom of movements rules were there.
So far nothing has directly impacted me, what sort of things are “many” experiencing?
This was pre Brexit.
The figures estimate UK nationals abroad around 2m, with around 3m+ EU folks living and working in the UK. We were always attractive as most in EU learn English at school. The language was a biggest driving force as opposed to some ‘Mail’ nonsense about easy access to services etc… we always had full control over what services and support is offered to EU migrants anyway with exception of healthcare which was reciprocal
Cant answer for them I am afraid, but something must be changing the opinions… This is an average of latest polls
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/euref2-poll-of-polls-2/
For me the most telling was how it older folks who tipped the balance, yet younger folks having to live with the decision. Would it have been really anti-democratic had the ref been restricted to under 65s for example? I say this as work opportunities, not just in the white collar sector impact most on those of working age etc…
This mirrors what was seen in actual votes in 2016, and the generational shift is interesting… I must be young at heart 
The younger folk had the opportunity to vote - in fact had the younger folk turned out in the same numbers as the oldies, we would still be in
I find it hard to shed a tear for someone who stood back and did nothing but now doesn’t like the outcome
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I don’t disagree about the voting apathy, its the same in each election, The point was more about the older generation deciding on a future in which the younger generations have to live. Even if many dont take up opportunities, I suspect most younger folks would rather have the option than not.
Goes back to the conceptual versus the tangible… I suspect that for the older generations who are more settled, retired or who no longer have a need for such opportunities, the concepts of sovereignty and the like seem (to me inexplicably) important, versus the more tangible benefits such as the freedom of movement
That is how it has always been and always will be, unless you disenfranchise anyone over 30 and lower the voting age to 10.
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maybe 16-65 would be better…
But over last 60-70 years we have a rapidly ageing population, and I would argue that this has skewed the decision making dramatically in favour of older generations. Democratic yes, but fair?
How much of a tangible benefit is FoM to your average UK voter? If anything, it was a tangible problem.
For most people, it meant increased competition for housing, increased competition for jobs, more people using public services without paying enough in to use them. Those are the tangible downsides, and they happen every day to more people than benefit from the upsides.
It was always great for those in Eastern Europe who could earn seven times the dough they could back home, and fair play to them. It was always great for the UK business owner looking to keep costs down. Not so fair play to them.
The main tangible benefit of FoM was the theoretical ability to live and work in another EU member state without a visa. I say theoretical because we’re fucking shit at learning other languages, and it’s not like there’s a country we can go to that pays seven times the dough.
The benefits to the average UK voter simply never outweighed the problems.
True, but the lack of affordable housing has been a problem since the UK Governments stopped investing in housing stock 50+ years ago… it has not suddenly gone away has it?
Only in the low skilled sector and in many cases jobs that were not being filled by ‘average UK voter’ who was reluctant to do them - yes they are mostly minimum wage, but the setting of the minimum wage level is UK government fault, not EU
Er again this is not really true is it… if you pay tax and NI here, then you get access to services, and we controlled this, not EU
Yes fair play to anyone looking to improve their situation, its what economic migration enables, you know poorer people looking for a better life. They will seek this in rich countries which we are (top 8 globally). If this means its creating problems here, this is because of our distribution of wealth. A top 8 global economy should NOT have citizens below teh poverty line, or in need of food banks. We do because of decisions made by OUR Government, … not the EU. A Global top 8 country should be welcoming of those seeking a better future - after all such labour can benefit our economy as many experts suggest…
Yep, these are exploitative UK /British businesses ignoring UK and EU employment legislation, not enforced by UK Government. You think this will now stop? Again this one is not a fault of the EU…
Is this not a bit little englander, we dont make any effort to learn other languages, and everything is about earning potential as opposed to what you can learn and experience when you are younger?
Sorry, but ‘perceived’ problems would have been more accurate… the perceived problems that became the Brexit mantra… sadly, too easy to sell to those who have suffered the shite of 10 years of Tory implemented austerity.
First off, cool to be arguing the merits of something rather than having a slanging match. Long may that continue.
You are quite right to suggest that there are underlying structural problems. The near complete commercialism of housing and the failure to replace social housing stock exists with or without the EU.
Government after government has failed to address this. Perhaps that is because half the Commons are landlords. I completely take that on board.
I also acknowledge the disgraceful finger-pointing I see from the government, insinuating that the reason we don’t have the public services we need is because of the foreigners. It isn’t. These services have been underfunded for decades, with too much of the funds they do get going to people who don’t really add any value.
I hear this argument advanced in one form or another, so I usually hit back with “if the government deported all non-British nationals tomorrow, would there be enough of these things?”. Slight pause and then a “no”. People know this argument is bollocks.
People also know that already pressed social systems do not cope well when you throw more people at them, especially if said people aren’t putting money into the exchequer.
The enlargement of 2004 led to a situation where people were coming here to do minimum wage jobs, which typically aren’t going to make much money for the exchequer. Most won’t pay income tax to any meaningful standard. None with any sense is going to buy our expensive ciggies or booze when it can be delivered from any one of their pals returning home.
Working people here felt real, not perceived effects. I remember a lot of my pals in the building trade having very slow trade in the late 2000s due to competition from overseas. Firms stopped investing in training and apprenticeships for a bit. What’s the point?
FoM worked great when it was arrangement between largely similar countries in terms of wealth. The minute Blair waived the seven year wait, the UK became a gold rush for aspiring Eastern Europeans and no wage growth for folks born here.
Couldn’t agree more, you half blind moron…
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Fixed 
Agreed, but as you yourself has said, we have voted for governments that appeal to the selfishness in us all, eg lower tax and less spend as if that is the only way… and I will stand by my opinion that is this what we have become as a nation post '79… It can’t be laid at the door of the EU
To an extent yes, but that is true for whoever has those low income jobs be they locals or EU citizens. I am fortunate enough to be a higher rate tax payer (and paying the extra for being in Scotland) and I dont care who this provides for in this country if there are people in need of healthcare or services. Especially as we could control benefit payments based on contributions etc.
Its also important to recognise that whilst their ‘tax’ may be low, they do spend money on food, clothes, housing, travel, basically everything that contributes to our economy and the wages and taxation of our local businesses.
I have needed work from builders since we bought our first house in 1996. In all the years since, there have been cyclical slumps, as with most industries and when buoyant as now, its sometimes impossible to get good trades people who are reliable, on time, fair priced and high quality… you usually have to wait. Point is, when I have had works carried out by EU folks its been excellent. They are happy giving you a fixed price and then starting at 7am and working through to 7pm and doing a weeks work in 3 days - and then having more time off with family etc… win win… its a different attitude and one which we could learn from. In no case have I used folks because ether are cheaper - usually similar estimates, but its the reliability that was so much better… just my experience
Economists often argue that such an influx of skilled labour has long term benefits as the locals need to up their game to stay competitive… and from what I have seen, this has happened as many of the best UK firms are much better these days and the cliches are less common.
This is where I differ again, The whole purpose of the FoM is about opportunity - with in the EU, you can go where your skills are most valued/needed and ultimately that may se your local economy benefit from your spend… and it slowly works. Prices go up in many of these countries as their wealth increases, much of which has been earned abroad in UK, France, Germany etc. Thing is, I have no problem with this
So what about the ‘wage stagnation’ in these lower paid jobs? You previously argued about supply and demand associated with service industry jobs meaning they remained poorly paid as many Migrant EU workers happier to take minimum wage jobs etc… well that may be true on a macro level to some extent, but as previously argued, its much more complex. If you take the migrants out of many of these jobs, several things happen:
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Wages do indeed go up to attract UK citizens into these jobs … BUT they could have been already more attractive to UK citizens were the minimum wage sufficiently high to make it better than being on benefits and sufficient to live on… that is on our Government, not the EU. Had it been 50% higher, then the competition is not on who accepts a lower wage but on who is better at the job… you cant simply apply product /commodity S&D principles to employees
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For those whose margins are tight in highly competitive sector such as catering and hospitality, the increased costs are passed on to the consumer, (potentially leading to lower per capita sped…?) or they cut costs in other ways - 2 waitresses instead of 3… service level can go down etc… Finding the right balance is critical, but it would be much better served by a better minimum wage, than by simply excluding a load of folks who might accept a lower wage
Some days it feels like all we hear is Radio Bazza
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There’s the old maxim. You get the government you deserve. I always had a huge amount of sympathy with that argument until recently, until Corbyn, in fact. The British people has got the governments it has been given. We genuinely tried something different between 2015 and 2019 and it was systematically strangled at birth.
I’m now of the mind that blaming people for their governments is a bit like blaming people for not getting a classy meal at a McDonalds. The menu is very limited.
I’ve made this analogy before, but we were effectively the European Dubai during the period where we’d waived the rules but others hadn’t. Fair dos, you get stung if you’re a higher rate taxpayer, but very few of the jobs taken were higher rate.
As you say, there are loads of people who don’t put in what they take out, but that tends to be spread across the population and tends to be because people could not get anything better. We’re paying better minimum wage than many countries are paying for professionals, which is why many of the minimum wage people I work with are Eastern European graduates.
I’m a lot more cynical than you, but perhaps it’s because I am seeing a pattern you’re not. There has been a continent wide exploitation of Eastern European labour. Freedom of movement has been a huge contributor to that and will continue to be.
Freedom of capital and the ability for firms to move where they will has been another factor. There is so much German production going on in former Soviet bloc countries. We’ve also seen high profile cases of UK firms moving East to lower the costs of production.
FoM, Freedom of Capital are really all about a race to the bottom. Great for those presently on the bottom, great for those presently on top, causing all kinds of problems for most of those inbetween.
Eastern Europe is not ONLY lower cost, it is also high quality labour.
Classic example is how the IT Outsourcing industry has shifted from India & especially around Bangalore into Poland especially but also further East. That move was driven by time zones but also the need for higher standards of quality & security.
Brits in IT wouldn’t get out of bed for the salaries on offer but they are driving an expansion of wealth & living standards here.
From was always 2 way. I’m the only Brit in the village, but we have Spanish, Italians, French & Germans here working at Dell, Shell, Cisco etc
You sit alone and watch your light
Your only friend through teenage nights
And everything you have known
You spread it on Sotonians
Your stories old, they always pain us
Through wars of words straight from Uranus
we did not laugh, we made 'em cry
You made us feel like we should fly
But you are just some some background noise
A backdrop for the girls and boys
We just don’t know, we just don’t care
And won’t complain when you’re not there
You had your time, you had the power
You’ve never had a finest hour
Radio (radio)
All we hear is radio Bazza
Radio goo goo
Radio ga ga
All we hear is radio Bazza
Radio blah blah
Radio, what’s new?
Radio, does anyone still love you?
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oooh I’ve never been a muse before, when do you take me out for nice meals and buy me nice things?
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When you ask nicely
Am particularly proud of the first 2 lines of the second verse