But that’s the point you and all the tub thumpers are missing. Of course we’re already into the EU project, of course we aren’t ever going to have total control of our borders, of course leaving won’t cause the armageddon being touted as fact. None of that was put to the vote; it was purely a vote on ideological principles, autonomy (or the illusion of it) against inclusion (or the illusion of it.) People didn’t vote on the minutiae, they voted for a general principle. If we’d been offered the status quo we’d most likely have opted for it.
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Of that is the case, it makes a total mockery of holding a referendum in the first place… because is SHOULD have been about the minutiae, because they are will determine our economic and social future, not some oft outdated ideological principles… a legacy of our imperialistic past… we also live in a representative democracy, where our elected leadership deserted their role.
I think you forgot the first ‘un’ - but i get your point.
The problem is that they are all pretending to represent the will of the people are all at an impasse as their personal ideology conflicts with both party expectations and in many cases that of their constituents… Basically we have selfish arseholes doing the negotiating. We also see more misdirection as idiotic attempts to undermine the process, lets blame the EU again etc - but you cant blame one side in a negotiation if BOTH sides arrive with a positional perspective as opposed to a collaborative mind set…
IF there was a decent well thought out referendum on the TYPE of exit, then this would most likely jar with all those you mention above because I suspect that there would be much greater unity amongst the ‘will of the people’ on the level of compromise than any of those political idiots… Its why both sides seem reluctant to go that route because despite the irony that they want to represent the will of the people, they all know that the will of the people if known would unlikely support either of their claims…
Good points made of late on here, but all falling into the trap of IF ONLY which is no help.
Seems clear that yet again, Mays team have gone back with nothing except “We don’t like the backstop” which (sod principle/democracy/ideology) is a piss poor negotiating tactic.
The EU are sitting there asking “what do you propose?” May answers with “We don’t like this”.
It must be like trying to debate with Bazza.
Equally, why on earth would anyone be negotiating this way?
Unless they really don’t want a deal…
And not one person is asking any questions about this.
Weird? Or fait accompli?
How many votes did UKIP get in 2015, they’ll get in and change the voting system which won’t be a bad thing but it will in the short term.
What makes you so sure? What makes you think there’d be no kickback when every political expert thinks the opposite?
Yes they have, if they represented their electorate and the vote of their constituency we’d be out already.
Remain was the status quo.
That’s my point right there. UKIP at their peak were the biggest threat to the two party system since the SDP, widely perceived as grabbing votes from Labour and the tories, but despite that they never amounted to much more than a pressure group or fringe party. I don’t particularly like the current system but face it, it ain’t going to change.
No it wasn’t. It was a green light for full integration, the next pro-european party in power would have had us into the euro and full political union without a question asked.
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What politician on Earth wants less power? That’s what being part of the EU means. Less power to represent. Farming policy? EU mandarins. Fishing policy? EU mandarins. Defence? Soon to be EU mandarins.
I’ve often said that the EU robs voters of their agency. What does that say of those that represent them, those that actually wield power, when they’d willingly allow it to be dictated by EU mandarins?
Thanks to the likes of Kinnock, Britton and Mandelson, the EU is now seen as a career path, one in which if you get to the top, you don’t have to bother with those meddlesome voters again.
Perhaps these pro-EU leaning politicians want that kind of power instead.
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And this time with a rebranding they’d get far more, a Northern Labour MP of 5Live earlier was saying this could be disastrous for Northern Labour, where does that leave the party then, they’d get far far more this time around, they only need to get in once, Labour would be wiped out in Labour heartlands that voted massively out, you don’t think so because with the greatest of respect you don’t know so, you’re guessing and guessing blindly.
You that confident?
I’ll preface this by saying that I know how FPTP works, specifically when it comes to keeping the big two parties in power. I would generally agree that under this system, there is no bouncing them out.
The thing is, there have been exceptions when folk have been arsed enough. Martin Bell is a decent example, but not perfect, as I think that Labour withdrew from the seat to allow him to spank Neil Hamilton. The Lib Dems sometimes manage to snaffle a seat or two from Labour or Conservative.
What the big parties have done is managed to fuck off an identifiable and not insignificant fraction of the British electorate. I would not predict a victory for Farage’s new party, but I do think they’ll win seats in that climate, even under FPTP, and they’ll certainly hurt both parties.
They’ll cause chaos in Westminster.
Uhm… politics has have become about power… but it SHOULD be about service
It doesn’t really invalidate anything I’ve said. When most of politics is one big gravy train, you shouldn’t be surprised if MPs start pissing tears when those grand European destinations are taken off the network.
When the remainers try to use the argument of “Brits abroad” against the influx of cheap eastern European labour, well from here its seems the Brexiters were correct, if they cost money the Spanish would have sent us packing, they don’t they bring capital and spend it there.
They need us there hence why they blinked first.
Its the little things… How long before this stuff hits our shelves, forced to take it as part of other deals we need post Brexit?
#wegotourcountrybackohreally