I enjoyed what John Oliver said last week with reference to ‘representative democracy’ - in that we elect our MPs to make complex decisions on our behalf… not bottle it and shove it in the hands of those who mostly don’t have the time or experience to make such important decisions
He also showed some honest folks admiting it was too complex a question if you had no specific ideological position… and how many did?
The really courageous thing for any politician to do right now is grow some fucking balls and tell folks like it is, that we are seriously screwed without a measured exit and if we can’t get that resolved in the next 4 weeks we need to be realistic a delay it all so that we do this properly. Not fucking pissing it all up the wall hiding behind the ‘will of the people’ bullshit… as I have said before (to which the brexiteers have failed to answer) would we be happy to accept the will of the people if it was a not binding referendum on the death penalty, or would we expected our elected representatives to save us from the mistakes of ‘knee-jerk reactionism to 10 years of Austerity… I think this will actually make Corbyn more electable as Brexit as it stands today would be a fucking disaster
One could argue that the current MPs following the ‘will of the people’ is appeasing those who want to fuck up the country … decisions made on emotive idealism as opposed to pragmatism night make some think they have the moral high ground, but tell that to those who will fucked even worse when our economy shrinks even further - the pound has lost 14% of its value since that decision… and we have not even left yet
If there is another vote there is a huge chance (many politicians know this) the reactionary vote will be higher for Brexit and even if there is a remain the reaction of that will be a brand new anti EU right wing party that will take many votes and split elections and will call the shots effectively in Westminster.
This has gone past the whinings of will of the people or peoples vote, this is about a reaction that could cause untold damage not to the economy but to the very fabric of our nation.
I won’t say civil war as that is a little bit too far but not too far away to scare the living shit out of me.
That was done 2 years ago Barry… and why should we as a people let the threat of right wing extremists polluting our country put us off taking a more measured approach than the reactionism of the last referendum? '‘ooh best not upset the right wingers?’ they can go fuck themselves…
IF this country voted in a further reactionary way just to spite itself, then it deserves all the shit it get because it means the majority are utter fucking clueless
This is what the 2nd vote people can’t and won’t grasp as it doesn’t fit in with their narrative (Southern in the main as well), they can’t see that these leeches will get 40-50 seats and cause widespread havoc to the whole political system for their undemocratic selfish self serving big corp vote.
However if Farage is promised a peerage or something of that sort he is crooked and wily enough to say he doesn’t fear another vote and bring it on hence starving somewhat the backlash will be.
I despair at the modern me me me take on the vote result, the wider implications are far more important.
I think you need a reality check on what is right wing British style and what could become right wing European and Central American in Britain.
The right wingers want a postponement or a call off, can you not see that?
Can you not see they’ll get many seats because of it and political relevance because of a denial of the vote?
Any 2nd vote WHATEVER the result is a win win, please understand this basic reality. This is why there hasn’t been a 2nd one already.
Think we’ve (not just you and I) have had a discussion about polls and how they’re done. Often small samples.
Anyway. I’m at
About it all now.
Just spending a ridiculous time on it when we have lots to be resolving.
If a second referendum happens we’ve effectively ignored the most democratic exercise ever conducted in this country. That’s problem one for the Remain crowd; people are going to be massively pissed off.
Second, there are going to be a considerably greater number of people fucked off with the antics and inflexibility of the European Union than there were in 2016.
This is where the Brexiteers have played a blinder by being as disruptive of any negotiations or deal as possible… aided by many Leavers who have failed to see the manipulation…or who gain from the disruption themselves politically
…in any second vote, no matter how democratically positioned (do we live in a representative democracy or not? ) after all the electorate has not been asked how it is prepared to Leave - the Brexiteers have created the perception that it’s al down to the EUs stubborn position and Leavers trying to undermine democracy… fucking clever, but how can the British public be so stupid?
Either they believe the shit again, when the challenges of the NI border and the desire to see a slower more measured exit that minimises economic impact must surely be obvious to everyone, or
They are even more reactionary - this time being fucked off with the process and wanting it over… once again ignoring the Complexity of a difficult and challenging decision and using as a mallet to beat out their frustration despite this being the exact thing that got this country into this mess in the first place…
Reactionary popularism driven by self serving elite who have blamed Brussels and immigrants and who ever else they can for the shit so many have put with the last 10 years and managed to convince so many that it’s just a ‘simple’ choice to ‘get our country back’ - that will resolve it all very nicely … the reality being that for many of these ‘elite’ the potential for deregulation out side of EU ‘constraints’ will enable them to begin even more self serving…
… this has never been about sovereignty or being power back to our control, it’s always been about the interests of those that can wield further power or make more capital through division, generating blame and confusion… and the public fell for it… as unfashionable or as arrogant as that appears, there is no other way of say it… they duped some with immigration bullshit, some with promises of HUGE revenue boosts for the NHS, some that sovereignty was the solution to regaining economic and social strength, and many that the ‘establishment’ was all to blame… and it was lapped up…
If we leave without a deal that ensures a sensible and gradual transition we are fucked. And now the British public don’t care? How fucking stupid…
The notion of a new right wing party (or any other party, for that matter) gaining a political foothold to threaten either of the main parties in the UK is pure fantasy, brexit or no brexit. And if you want to stockpile tinned food and nylons against the impending civil war then knock yourself out, it’s no skin off anyone else’s nose.
Not sure how a second referendum is going to solve anything
First what questions - you can’t have no deal, deal or remain because that splits the leave vote, but you cannot pick just two options as all three are valid. It would have to be two: first leave or remain then if leave deal or no deal.
Second if remain wins by a small margin are we going to go again?
Third and this is the biggy as to why I think this is a pointless exercise. Will the remainers like Souibry, Cable and the SNP actually respect the result if leave win again or will they thwart the outcome as they have to date?
Finally if we go back to the people, then the politicians have basically ruled out referenda in the future because they public will lose trust if them ever implementing the decision.
Personally, I wouldn’t object to a further referendum but this time with three questions. Stay, leave, or stay with a guarantee of exactly maintaining our current position (ie no single currency or further integration into any other aspect of the single-state direction of the EU.) Imho, had that third option been offered in the referendum we would very likely have remained on our present terms. The biggest problem remainers have studiously ignored is that most people in the UK don’t want, as Michael Howard put it, to be “part of a country called Europe.” We want to trade with them and we don’t want to have wars with them, but we don’t wish to be governed by them. Leaving altogether was a sledgehammer to crack that nut and will certainly damage us economically, but it wouldn’t have been needed had the third option been offered. We were effectively presented with an unnecessarily stark choice between committing ourselves to full integration into the inevitable EU superstate, or the nuclear option of getting out altogether. The fact that we voted out despite every mainstream party pulling out all the stops to persuade us to remain wasn’t just voter scepticism of our politicans, it was a rejection of the EU project and our part in it.
Thing is what do politicians do if they genuinely believe a mistake has been made (not self serving wankers, but those who might even go against ideological / party principles after practical considerations of what is in the countries best interests- if there are any lime that?) those with courage to do what they were elected to do, which is use their judgement to make decisions… most have for the first time in history hidden behind ‘will of the people’ rhetoric
To ensure they remain blameless if any shit storm post Brexit…
… we have reached a hideous situation because of the political selfishness of many in both main parties looking to gain mileage out of disunity - nothing more. It meant there was never any chance of a decent debate about any of the issues of EU in or out from immigration to decision making etc… it all came down to preposterous jingoistic flagwaving vs scaremongering fools and that was the biggest stain on democracy… the only issue I have now with a second vote is that I doubt it will be a democratic improvement
The ONLY sensible path is to look at how best to to unite - that means compromise from both sides, not the ‘we won, shut the fuck up’ mantra that is as childish as it is rich with echos of Versailles… It means acknowledging that leave is what we do, but also that we need to do it right and not be rushed or divided in how we leave. The EU don’t want us to just leave either so we are in a reasonable position to do this sensibly… but only if we don’t have the very politically selfish fuvkwits doing it as we have seen… multiples by those idiots who are so in awe of the ‘will of the people’ both are ridiculous and lack any sense of courage, conviction or real leadership .
Time and sensible compromise should be acceptable to on both sides who want the best possible for the countries future.
Although personally I have no issue with country of Europe, being half already and all the stuff I have gone on about before… I do acknowledge that I am in a minority’s view and I suspect you are pretty close to the Mark with that third option
I do think immigration played a huge part, not because the north are ‘geographically’ racist, it because less affluent areas and those who have suffered most under austerity were shamelessly targeted with propaganda about the impact of immigrant workers and all that was false that went with it… folks don’t need to be racist to be worried about jobs etc… it was just presented falsely in terms of scale, impact etc.
I also think we have a section of society that is still suffering from a false belief that we can return to our glory days - of being an industrial might but for those pesky EU rules… shackles and constraints … without recognising we were the cause of our own post empirialist downfall… the lack of genuine modernised industrial relations, the resulting sinking of industries in the Thatcher years and the resulting compassionless destruction of whole communities… and it’s not coming back. The works has moved on and our economy has been shaped by the very services that are easy to shift overseas.
Map if we have been unable to come close to a consensus on how we leave in two years, then how can we expect any progress in the next two.
Take Soubry for instance- there is no way on this planet she is ever going to accept anything other that complete remain. There are plenty more like her. On the other side you have Rees Mogg and his ilk. They are never ever going to come to a consensus and unfortunately there is too many in each camp which means they can frustrate the process
Surely any second referendum should only be on what form Brexit takes and not on whether we want to Remain or Leave. That question has already been asked. I don’t agree with leaving at all but it was decided thus, although i do want the chance to say how I (and the Country) want the UK to leave and not rely upon dickhead Politicians whose own self interest is paramount in their decision making.
