:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal

:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal
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#679

I didn’t say it was all about immigration, i said immigration was the decisive factor for a huge number of leave voters, the only game in town for a lot of them. Which it was, just listening to conversations in pubs, on the bus etc will confirm that. And why would i take the piss out of Thais? You are absolutely correct, the Thai people are very nationalistic, to the point of brainwashing. As soon as they start school the only history they are taught is Thai history, the Royal family are virtual living Gods etc. They are in complete ignorance about stuff like the second World War, Nazism etc. If you ask them who Hitler was you get a blank stare, never heard of him. It is what it is. But i fail to see what all this has to do with the UK leaving the EU, and the reasons for it. For the record i don’t ‘hate my country’, nothing i have ever posted would suggest that. I love being British, but sometimes i feel ashamed of a section of my fellow Brits. Especially the flag waving nationalist xenophobes, and their increasingly vocal ‘Wogs begin at Dover’ view of our role in the world. And i will never apologise for that, and will always call ,it out.


#680

The implication being that I am either dishonest or unthinking for having an opposing view.

Never had you down as a namecaller, Nottarf. Still, you live and learn, init.


#681

Not sure where Nothalf has called you any name Pap…

He states (realistically imho) that immigration was the deciding factor for many, not all

most would acknowledge that a sensible, grown up debate was needed to ensure that the FACTS about it were known and second to consider solutions (many of which already exist but are not well publicised)

But the biggest con was the chief Brexiteerd creating the perception that an exit from the EU was the only solution… feeding on the insecurities of many, especially the poorest, and manna from heaven to those with more unhealthy views.

A lot is made of the AfD in Germany and the FN in France etc… any we cant ignore that these political groups have gained traction as a result of fear over high numbers of Muslim refugees etc… but to use that as an anti EU stuck at the same time as ignoring our own underbelly if racism and islamaphobia is just ridiculous… many in this country are just not as organised or vocal about it.

For Bazza… I don’t hate the country either, but I can’t be proud of it in 2019. True democracy and freedoms that you would probably ‘Britain’ caught the last WW for allows me to say that. Your ‘if you don’t like it, fuck off’ was the attitude of the other side…


#682

Immigration is an example, among many, of an area of policy in which we’ve ceded effective control to the European Union. You can also add food, fish, VAT, levels of public spending, ability to run a deficit to encourage growth.

In truth, there are many other areas of centralisation that are already in statute, just being kept at bay by a national right to veto that’ll disappear by 2022.

Dominic Cummings nailed it best with his three word mantra. Take back control. That was the message that resonated with the public. It was not “Wogs End At Dover”.


#683

… but it was ‘take back control over immigration’ that resonated most with many… and we DO have measures we can apply to do this… and many seemed under the rather ignorant delusion that it would stop brown skinned folks …

… how much control will we have over visas for countries we want trade deals with?

Also the 2022 thing is NOT set in stone, there was still room for negotiation and decisions later on what we would be part of.

I appreciate it’s a left wing doctrine to have as localised government as possible… decentralised Powers to manage local needs… the Greens were all about such devolution back in the 1980s… But that is NOT what is happening… and as I have said on numerous occasions, logic and rational thinking would always suggest it is a damm sight more important WHAT decisions are made as opposed to WHERE, which is the view of most in the EU… except Britain where we are stuck on old school sovereignty as more important than any implications of it…


#684

Ok, how do you stem inward migration from the European Union?

What measures are available under Freedom of Movement, a requirement of membership of the Single Market?


#685

First up we already have legislation that means we do not have to provide any freebies, housing or benefits etc for those without work

We can also apply stricter application of a decent minimum wage and actually do something about the shitty BRITISH employers who undercut it

Britain is an attractive place to come and seek work because of the language so are always likely to have a higher share… especially as our own language skills are shit in comparison… despite there being great opportunities in Europe for those with those skills…

There are OTHER things we could do, but it’s a little churlish to expect me to come up with all possibilities on a web forum…if you don’t believe it’s possible, that is a limitation of your own creativity and problem solving ability… in effect the British people have used a fucking wrecking ball to crack a nut…


#686

You are just plain wrong. I have never implied that you are dishonest or unthinking for having an opposing view. Or called you names. In any conversation with the majority of ardent Leavers, when discussing their reasons for voting leave, when push comes to shove it comes back to one thing, immigration. Not all leavers of course, but a very large proportion of them. Surely we have all heard it. I absolutely appreciate that you are not one of them, your arguments are always intellectually sound and based on informed opinion. If i have led you to believe otherwise then i apologize, that certainly wasn’t my intention. But it needs to be said that many many of the passionate leave voters voted the way they did because they are openly xenophobic, even racist. Hand on heart we all must have heard them when we are going about our daily business, social interaction etc. You would have to be deaf if you haven’t. Again, i absolutely respect your opposing point of view to mine regarding Brexit, which you always argue cogently and honestly. I am sorry if i led you to believe otherwise.


#687

I asked what the British government could legally do to stem inward migration from the European Union while being a member of the Single Market. The answer, as you well know, is nothing.

Because under the Single Market, the noble Freedom of Movement is simply a means by which human labour is made available from anywhere in the continent, to anywhere in the continent.

Finally, I have to take you up on your claim that for most, “take back control” meant “take back control of immigration”. While Farage might have participated in a xenophobic campaign, Vote Leave purposefully wouldn’t touch that stuff with a barge pole.


#688

You have already previously stated that your problem with the freedom of movement is that it creates wage stagnation… lets leave that, but let’s be brutally honest. This only applies to low wage and low skilled jobs.Now if employers can get away with paying LESS to migrant workers than others then we can legislate against that… if there are no jobs available for low skilled workers in the UK, and no freebies, then most they won’t come.

The problem is that some are using jobs going to Bulgarian waitresses as a reason to suggest freedom of movement is a bad thing… it’s NOT just a supply and demand thing that you have suggested, it’s more blunt than that… these are migrants that will work for less and UK rmploers exploit it… when they leave the employers have to pay more as the Brit won’t get out of bed for the same money… it’s the employers who are at fault and we Can have legislation that would eliminate this, but we don’t apply it

The actual numbers of jobs this has taken away from your BRIT is minimal and NO ONE was complaining about the bar jobs taken by Aussies… because they got paid the same as the BRITs…

I think you have confused your desire to see poor folks earn more with eliminating the exploitation of low paid EU workers by UK employers

One can’t ignore the longer term positive impact that influx of cheaper labour can have on local economy, that has been validated by examples and by many economists - it’s simply NOT just an o level supply and demand equation…


#689

When was the last time you worked among minimum wage people? As peers? I last did so in 2017, and it was a real eye opener. All of my line were lovely people. I am still mates with a lot of them on Facebook, including the Eastern Europeans.

The other half of my line were white British workers from the local area.

They may earn the same money, but I think you’re looking at two entirely different definitions in terms of feeling value for time worked.

Most of the Eastern European kids were slumming it, living in overcrowded accommodation, with the occasional trip back home. The minimum wage mightn’t go far in England, but it goes a long way back home, especially if folk are sensible with their money.

I remember a round of voluntary redundancies going around in Northern Ireland. Many of the applicants were Eastern European, knowing that the payoff would give them tremendous financial advantage back home.

I do not blame the immigrant. In their shoes I’d be doing the same and I’ve said all along that I would have guaranteed British citizenship for those EU citizens living here already had it been in my power to do so, irrespective of what the EU says about Brits living in the EU.

By contrast, the English worker was often doing two other jobs to have some standard of living, struggling to find an affordable home, in part because of their co-workers on the line.


#690

Easy to forget, but one of THE biggest immigration issues for many people was that an immigrant could just rock up and claim NHS and benefits. “Bloke jumps off truck in Dover claims Dole, War Veterans sleeping on the street” - easy story to pitch.

That was a UK Government policy NOT an EU policy, in Germany and others you are not eligible for 4 years after registration and paying equivalent of local tax and NI.


#691

Back in 2008 for me… when between jobs so YES And I earned £6 an hour same as those from Rastern Europe

If the minimum wage is not enough for ten UK, why is that an EU issue? It’s a government issue… how folks then choose to spend it is then up to them and we could also make such housing conditions illegal through proper sensible rean legislation!

We chose not to have appropriate legislation that would create a more appropriate playing field and that is not the EUs choice


#692

It’s also not true. You can’t just claim dole…

The numbers of so called ‘health tourists’ is very small given the average length of time for most surgical interventions etc… it’s another piece of propaganda


#693

Strange isn’t it. As you say, not under EU law. Which leaves a very big question.

“Under EU law, you can only exercise your free movement rights if you are working, have a job lined up, are a student or jobseeker, and have enough money to support yourself so you are not a drain on State finances. Under EU law you cannot just move to another Member State simply to claim benefits.”

Chapter VI (p37) in this.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF


#694

Exactly.

However, I think what Pap is trying to say is that many who come here can accept less money as they have less cost of living to save cash to take home… my point is that if we make better legislation that makes such high occupancy slum housing illegal, then its solves that problem… the situation is driven by BRITISH people exploiting the desire of migrant workers to better their lot… instead of shutting the door, the more socially responsible thing to do is simply remove the legislative loopholes of our own making…


#695

Point of order. It’s people exploiting migrants IN Britain, not necessarily Brits or even people living in Britain who are doing that. Sweeping generalisations like you have made there are why I struggle to take any of this thread seriously.


#696

Fair point, but It is BRITISH legislation that allows them to do so… Whether they be British companies, nationals or not… Point is, we are in control of it, not the EU, but have chosen not to control it, Why?

Its sweeping generalisations about migration that were a major part of the Leave campaign… only fair to respond in kind :wink:


#697

Another point of order. There was only one official Leave campaign, and that was Vote Leave, after winning designation from the electoral commission.

Farage and his xenophobic tactics weren’t part of any of that. Vote Leave didn’t go for any of that. It was a binary question and there were horrors on both sides of the equation.

I daresay that it makes you and your fellow Remainers a little uncomfortable to be in complete lockstep with Messrs Blair and Mandelson, whereas I wouldn’t want those messers anywhere near a real decision ever again. It doesn’t make you them.


#698

They did go for that.

“If we vote to remain in the EU, we’ll be stuck with an
out-of-control immigration system which is bad for
our security. The European Courts
will be in charge of who we let in,
and who we can remove. Imagine
if Turkey joins this broken system”

Here’s the leaflet.

The European courts have no power over this and cant because of protocol 30 of the Lisbon treaty.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2007:306:0156:0157:EN:PDF

This is beyond ridiculous, when you consider who that puts you in lockstep with. You are a socialist remember.