:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal

:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal
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#278

Surely that’s even more reason to reverse the 1975 poll. People were lied to, and they were thick!

On the bright side, us brilliantly educated 21st century boys and girls would have been better prepared for the onslaught of presumably decisive referendum mendacity :wink:


#279

#280

I got told this yesterday, the cat will well and truly be amongst the pigeons, what unifying manifesto will the tories have?
This is why it made sense for Corbyn to keep quiet but he’ll be called out now on his view and that is far more important long term, the future of the Labour Party and the possible rise of a genuinely disenfranchised angry right wing rests on his shoulders and correct way to find a middle ground.


#281

Could be clever.
Yes you get a 2nd vote. Mays deal or something the others have at the back of their minds.
IE a general election.
They can trot out facts they get backbenchers in line or on the outside, simple specific manifesto.
Could be the plan


#282

If the public kick May out means the others have to go through with Brexit. Corbyn is screwed being glued to Brexit as well.
Whichever party implements Brexit clusterfuck becomes the new Wigs & Quils or whatever they were


#283

Not sure that’s the case anymore. May and her grinning band of incompetents will always be remembered for fucking up the negotiations.
Played correctly, any new PM can paint themselves as the hero getting us out of the shit. Anything better than May’s proposal would surely have the press on side(that’ll be a tough pill to swallow for them if it’s Corbyn). Just need to keep reminding everyone that they are trying to work around the fuck up they inherited.


#284

Its interesting that there has not been any outrage at all these parties from both sides, using the situation for political ends… shenanigans and typical bullshit is expected, but for something as important as this? Pretty shameful really.

Couple more comments before I bugger off again:

  1. ‘The will of the people’

What is this ? today? Its a fact that when asked a simple binary question back in 2016, 51.7% of those that voted wanted to leave the EU vs 48.3 wanting to stay or thereabouts. But how many of these on both sides voted as they did out of pure ideological spirit, how many voted as they did because of one issue and its direct local impact (real or otherwise) and how many due to protesting against 10 years of austerity?

I believe this IS a really important because unlike in a general election where we have the democratic right to change what we don’t like within a reasonable 4-5 year time frame, the real consequences of what the public have voted for where not understood at the time… and there is no turning back. Even if there was a desire in future to rejoin, it would not be without full commitment, Euro and everything that is planned… no more concessions etc.

Therefore its a little disingenuous to suggest that we are lied to and given misinformation in all elections so we cant use that as a gripe against the referendum… first because 2 wrongs dont make a right, and secondly because of the long-term implications with no opportunity to change minds…

So I would be interested to know how many of the voters did so on based on deeply routed ideological reasons, vs those that were in effect swayed by shit that was floating around.

For example, having real concerns about the impact of immigration and whether it should and how it might be controlled is a genuine question, it does not make you a racist or a bigot to ask it. However, to suggest that leaving the EU was the only way to mange this is simply WRONG yet was peddled by Farage and his cronies as well as other brexiteers… voting Brexit to combat immigration does not make you a racist, but it does make you naive and ignorant of other solutions and i would like to know how many were influenced by such crap…

Same with the big red bus… its become a joke, but to undermine its impact given the publicity it created is also naive as no context was ever provided; 360mil of cash spent a week on the EU was the message that people took home, splashed around the red tops with the corrections and retractions limited to the inside pages and Sunday politics shows which never reach a vast majority of voters… and context was important, not just the truth that it was actually just half that given our rebate, but that fact that 170mil might be a BIG emotionally charged figure, but in context of our GDP and the NHS budget of approx 150bn per year its approx 5% of it budget… yet… a single 1% dip in our GDP would wipe this out even IF such cash was actually spent on the NHS… yet best estimates say our economy is going to suffer a great deal more than 1% with no deal… I wonder how many folk, might have looked at that differently in context of an economic down turn?

And that is my point, I believe the vast majority of voters on both sides are swayed by what they believe will impact them personally and that is fair enough… its no surprise to see a North South divide as those in more deprived areas are naturally likely to be more concerned by jobs, services etc and immigration and cash to Europe, the likely to be influencers and motivators… they are not worried about impact on opportunities for study or work or retirement to the French countryside…

… and its why giving people a chance to express their WILL now when there is more information available is so much more democratic. Ultimately, we need to understand what is in the countries best interests, not personal or party ideology…

I cant see why this is such an issue, we all after all want to try and unite over this issue, and allowing folks to share how their opinions have evolved as they have learned more is surely a good thing? After all, despite there being no mention of deals in the referendum paper, it was always on the Brexiteer lips when dismissing the impact of "project fear’ - a deal that would allow us to exit at a pace and as partners to minimise disruption to our economy and services… a phased exit?

The problem is not May, or ‘incompetence’ but the simple fact the issue has become a playground for personal and party politics, positioning for a GE etc… its a fucking game to all of them, as none will ever have to worry about any impact.

Would a cross party, independent Brexit group dedicated to developing a stages withdrawal been really too hard to set up? Too much interference and pissing in form the cunts looking for personal and political mileage form this is what the problem is…

Finally - It’s so easy to slag the EU. It is after all bloated and full of twats feeding at the trough… like any local or national Government - and it is a club.

But its a club that does provide benefits for its members… it also has a number of rules/conditions and a membership fee… now we dont like all the rules and conditions but many want the benefits… but we only paid 60% membership fee and managed to get out of some of the rules… BUT we seemed to expect that we could then still demand the rules be changed…

IF we had been fully paid up and influential… our ability to lead and set those rules over the last 25 years along with the Germans and French would have seen them much more aligned to our needs and culture… instead, we we had no voice and then whinged about it…


#285

#286

As I was saying this is a huge risk and the tories pursuing an exit with this deal know it, the North will be lost a populist right and one that will have enough numbers to last a term and disrupt and even have leverage to implement genuine right wing ideas into legislation.


#287

… as I was saying, is it not shameful that this is now all about GE and party politics?


#288

The tories have always been, are and will be a party that puts party first and the nation second, Dave the self employed white van man thinks its the tories who are proudly British etc etc yet he couldn’t be further from the truth.


#289

Yes, it is, as you say in your next paragraph.

Who’s in charge? Do you think they have been competent?
As you say it’s a game to them, so blame those in power(it’s always their game, with their rules, you’re forced to play).
Or you could just blame Corbyn :grin:


#290

I dunno. It’s less shameful than an utterly compromised politician taking us in without a public vote.


#291

Reverse it by another vote is all that’s needed surely?


#292

Nope. We’ve voted thanks.

We’ve also seen what sort of deal the EU would like to offer us, and it’s a very shabby deal indeed.

How many other countries do you know that would sign up to the EU’s diktat just to be able to change its immigration policy?


#293

Behave

:lou_wink:


#294

I am. It’s a cynical view of May’s deal. It also happens to be accurate. The price for control of our own immigration is perpetual alignment through the backstop, or the break up of the United Kingdom. That is all she has secured.


#295

Actually we can finally become English. That could be a win.
:lion:


#296

English identity has too often been an overlooked aspect of life in the Union. The Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are all free to develop and revel in their national characters. For too long, Englishness has been co-opted by the far right, leading to a ridiculous situation where English national identity has few positive connotations.

It’s something former Southampton MP John Denham is very interested in.


#297

I have a bowler hat.
Not wanting to be mistaken for a complete cunt I opted for the navy blue one.