đŸ€Ș 2019 General Election Discussion :gov:

Reasonably serious discussion
1406

Pie is indeed right Barry, labour won’t win an election by calling everyone who voted against them thick cunts


But the debate on here has not really been about that - its been about those 3-4mil swing voters and why they have decided to vote for what many observers feel may leave them deeper in the shit.

I am sorry, But i honestly do not believe this is out of some deep reflection on the ideological values of sovereignty vs EU membership, or perhaps more importantly a deep understanding of the consequences of their actions - and this is born out when many of these have been asked even on the ‘Tory supporting BBC’ - where the opinions vocalised could come direct from Cummings mouth - be it on the ‘opportunity’ of Brexit, the controls on ‘mass’ immigration, how the EU has stifled our growth and industry and kept us in the shackles of austerity
 and how Corbyn cant be trusted, that he is anti-semite, that offering the country a vote on any deal is ‘anti-democratic’ (which it is not)

Therefore, you have three possible conclusions:

  1. These 3-4m believe the shit spouted by the opportunist elite because they have been lied to very cleverly by masters of the game appealing directly to the vulnerability of folks who have been most harmed by 10 years of tory austerity, or

  2. They are highly receptive to much of it because it is aligned with their own views on foreigners and things foreign ‘controlling us’ - who must be to blame for all the local ills, or

  3. They are stupid

Why else do ordinary folks who have been shat on, vote for something so alien to their own welfare? why? Please tell me, but don’t pretend its out of some deep ideological set of values

What Pie says still does not stack up on the numbers game, with 53% of those who voted, voting for parties who offered at least a vote on any deal
 again, can you explain that (ignoring FPTP as that is obvious), because if everyone was simply fed up of Brexit and just wanted to ‘get it done’, I would have expected a majority for those parties, as we saw in the referendum. No one has as yet offered to explain that


Finally, Brexit will now be done in some form or another , on which we have zero clarity. But I will retain my opinion that the necessity of closer alignment with the US as a result, will see any regained ‘sovereignty’ as merely a public illusion
 and that the poor and most vulnerable in our society will suffer most. It is also of my opinion, that had Corbyn made a manifesto pledge to simply ‘get on with it’ he might have scraped in
 BUT, without the economic resources to deliver the service levels he also promised at a time when of post brexit recession, he would last one term - picking up the blame for all the economic woes delivered through years of trade negotiations


Pie is great, but as I am not looking to win an election, i can call it as I see it
 not everyone who voted for the Tories is stupid or racist
 in fact many will be smart and not, but it only needed enough to swing the balance and there were
imho

1407

So who is the more stupid? Those voters who went for Conservative? Or folk openly admitting they still don’t get it after four years of trying?

1408

Please elaborate, as you have not addressed any of the questions above, so i can only assume you don’t ‘get it’ either


1409

You also miss another important point
 its easy to assume that when folks are disenfranchised by years of neglect that they look for an alternative - that is a rational thought process. The fact that because of lies and spin and misinformation , the alternative they chose is one which will fuck them over even more, is not.

1410

Nope, I did not address any of your points.

For the same reason I don’t write fan fiction.

Pie has been spot on throughout, btw.

1411

Well i’ll assume you cant answer, which is an acceptable position. but just so we are clear the questions that remain open and that you dont seem willing or capable of answering are:

  1. What makes 3-4 mil swing voters vote for something that will harm them most? (ideological perspectives are not accepted as from interviews with many of these folks its clear they do not have any concrete perspectives on this)

  2. Why do 53% still believe at least a vote on any deal would be preferred, yet we told everyone is now behind Boris and his merry band to get it done?

Not that difficult surely?

PIE is talking about winning elections and he is spot on.however, I am talking about why those who switched did so and what thought process they applied in making that decision because the asked seem to struggle to provide any? Not prepared to offer an opinion?

1412

And just like all your other assumptions, it is false.

It’s not that I can’t explain these quite explicable positions.

It’s just that you’ll refuse to understand. You asked the same question of the Leave vote in 2016.

“Why oh why oh why did people vote to make themselves poorer?”, as if money is the only fucking thing people care about.,

Of course, that point neatly avoids or exists in a different universe to ours, one where trade union action doesn’t exist as a concept.

Because, y’know, that’s precisely what working class people do whenever they vote to strike. They vote to make themselves poorer.

Why would they do that Map, oh-cleverest-person-in-all-the-world?

1413

Now you are being a bit of an arse
 If I was that clever, why would I ask you?

Seriously, this is not really the same thing as striking where its about a collective good (but usually about pay and conditions), its a reaction to being poor and disenfranchised so voting for change is a perfectly reasonable POV
 my question is in the choice made because it is NOT reasonable to choose something that will not deliver you from the very shit you are in
 (to use your strike analogy, its like striking and then accepting T+Cs that were worse than what you had/were offered in the first place) to chose something that will make it worse, based on lies and misinformation
 What is it that is illogical about my reasoning?

You are normally the forum clever dick quite happy to tell all like it is, so why not this time
 but it does need to be a sound logic and ideally evidence based
 typically you tend to provide your opinion as fact which was we know is not the same thing


1414

Now you’re making the assumption that the 53% of people who voted for a party that still believe a vote on any deal would be preferred wanted a vote on any deal.

I voted Liberal in my area because I didn’t want Johnson in, the Lib-Dems want to scrap Brexit, idealogical voting came to the fore, I don’t want Brexit stopped. I should imagine I am very much the same as a lot of other people.

How many people voted for Labour because of idealogical reasons yet still want to “Get Brexit Done”?

Conversely how many voted Conservative, because they always have, yet want to stop Brexit.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

2 Likes
1415

Interesting looking at some of the numbers potentially in the Wueens Speech, and vibes from the EU.
Billions for the NHS, the North, much needed funds for Border Force (As anyone who has landed at T3 in Heathrow early will welcome after Maybot destroyed them.
The EU now realise that simply saying NON all the time will no longer work, we are leaving and suddenly Varadker and others are all smiles and get a deal done.

I’d like to keep the option to use Bletchs’ #wedontbelieveyou # for a while yet, but seems Boris did have some pretty detailed plans after all.

1416

Yup. Voted Labour despite their shit show of a Brexit policy.

Yet I’m supposedly part of the 53% that wants a deal


1417

Can I just throw in a gentle reminder that everyone is entitled to his/her own belief? They are not however entitled to try to force that belief on others. That is the whole point of a discussion, we discuss our thoughts and beliefs and at the end of the day we agree to disagree and carry on as friends.

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1418

Or not :wink:

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1419

You have kind of made my point though
 there will be many who voted differently on Brexit because ultimately is was LESS important to them than the other critical issues or their political stance
 which I can fully understand and appreciate. What I am questioning and what my opinion above describes is asking why for some Brexit become more important than anythings else, especially for those for whom it will most likely make things a lot worse
 because the answer they give are frequently those based on the lies the and misinformation spouted both pre ref, since ref and during the GE campaign


1420

Is this the new EU Commissioner for Brexit??

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1421

No
 if you take a moment to consider what I have been saying
 for you, despite your overwhelming support for Brexit, when it came down to it, you made a perfectly reasonable choice to vote for a party that would give people a vote on any deal (despite not agreeing with that policy), because of what they ultimately were offering this country
 That is to me a fair choice.

The question i am asking is about those who ditched those perspectives and beliefs to vote for something that is simply going to make things more challenging for them


1422

Can’t remember who said this. but I can’t take credit.

Discussion doesn’t matter anymore. In fact, it’s in direct conflict with something else; an overriding need to be right.

That is not a comment on individuals. More a comment on how individuals react to each other.

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1423

Could we insist that all discussion on this thread ends with “your wrong, but i love you😘”?
Who would get angry at that😁

We can start with all those that thought a single issue decided everything (rather than the propaganda they were fed).
Your wrong, but i love you :kissing_heart:

Main reasons voters did not vote for Labour

43% The leadership
17% Their stance on Brexit
12% Their economic policies

Remember that two foreign states openly stated

“It could be that Mr Corbyn manages to run the gauntlet and get elected,” he said on the recording. “It’s possible. You should know, we won’t wait for him to do those things to begin to push back. We will do our level best. It’s too risky and too important and too hard once it’s already happened.”

Some figures on articles in the 45 days since the election was called.

Corbyn and antisemitism” -1,247
‘Johnson and Islamophobia’ – 159

“Corbyn and IRA” – 253
“Johnson and Yemen” – 16

And a hint at where that really puts us.

Then you need to look into Isaac Levido and the strange illegal things that happened here, exactly the same as happened in Australia when he was involved in electioneering there.

Add in IDOX and the dubious shit their up to(and connected to). Anyone ever heard of a 96.5% voter return? It can happen when they’re involved(in Britain).

If you think i’m wrong, that’s ok, as long as you follow the earlier guidelines :joy:

1424

The poll had 5.6K people answer.

1425

I don’t think it was that brexit was more important to some voters, it was that their vote on brexit was being ignored. Whether their vote would make them poorer/whether they were lied to became less important than being completely disregarded.

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