🦞 Trans rights

:lobster: Trans rights
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#21

Is this the right place for this?

image


#22

possibly not.


#23

Got sent that from one of my unreconstructed pork eating, alcohol drinking Muslim friends who don’t give a toss about homosexuality / trans blokes/ women and that sort of shit.


#24

I’m disappointed by a lot on this thread, tbh.


#25

Sorry, but that sort of comment is disappointing. What do you think people should be saying in your honest opinion?

Remember, just because things are plastered over the media doesn’t mean everyone agrees with it & likewise people who don’t agree with what is plastered over the media are right.

Lay it out on the table for everyone to dissect like other threads on here perhaps?

Over to you then…


#26

Poetry. Sheer poetry.


#27

This is just dumb:

A) There’s flying cars
B) There is and already was (in 1980) planes, trains, cars, bikes etc that more than did the job for transport.
C) I’d much rather a society that allows people to express themselves and be who they are without reprisals or discrimination.

It’s just a stupid and nasty.

The issue of it being a vocal minority causing a lot of noise. For a group of people usual so suspect of the media and their coverage, their doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of critical thinking going on here. It is patently obvious the media, in general, have an anti-Trans agenda. So yeah, they are probably going to give over a disproportionate amount of time to certain people if they can use it to continue that attack.

I don’t think Jo Brand is being as critical of the Trans community as is originally being suggested:

She said people on both sides of the debate were being aggressive and they should sit down and talk in a more mature way. “People are picking up opinions that aren’t necessarily being expressed and the whole thing has blown up into a massive great wall of argument that now can’t be torn down.

“I think there’s a lot of infighting with feminism and feminists being quite nasty to each other depending on which camp they’re in. I would rather it was a broad church. We should be able to be adult.”

So much of the ‘debate’ is pearl clutching nonsense. The bathroom issue is made out to be such a huge deal, but how often does anything actually occur in these situations? Even with a media that portrays any negative action by a trans person in such a disproportionate manner, it’s something that hardly ever happens. It’s also something that the flip side to is never given any thought.

Trans folk are disproportionately victims of violence. Imagine how horrible it must be to have to worry about where you are going to have a piss, every single time you leave the house. Every time you want to use a toilet in public, people are going to be judging you, and some small minded idiot is going to be pissed off. Quite often, someone will make a scene and embarrass you, or worse yet assault you. I know 2 trans people, both of whom have been assaulted on more than one occasion in this exact scenario. All they wanted to do was go to the fucking toilet.

I find the idea that people do this as a ‘lifestyle choice’ or that kids are doing it as a trend, frankly, fucking grotesque, and hugely ignorant. Trans folk suffer far higher rates of mental health issues, and are far more likely to attempt suicide than anyone else - some figures have put this as high in 1 in 2 people. Studies have suggested that supporting children that identify as such, and allowing them to transition early massively, massively reduces this. The scare stories you hear of people regretting their choices are such low percentages that they shouldn’t really count, but again, the very rare case where someone does - is plastered all over the media.

Why is it seen as weird that a child stating they believe they are trans, or even still gay treated with - “they are too young to know”, whilst a child the same age declaring they have a hetero crush doesn’t raise an eyebrow? If a child is too young to know they aren’t straight, why are they old enough to know they are straight?

Similarly, the idea that there’s suddenly a massive influx of people identifying like this is bogus. It’s such a recent idea that we all fit in to neat little boxes and only have attractions to members of the opposite sex. The ideas of gender and sexuality go back thousands of years. You may well hear more about it now, because, well, obviously, people talk about it more.

The parallels to this ‘debate’ and that regarding homosexuality 30 or so years ago are astonishing. That it’s even a debate feels pretty grotesque. The overwhelming majority of these people just want to be able to live their fucking lives in peace, without people wanting to know all about their genitals, or be the subject of disdain or mockery. They don’t want to hurt anyone, or abuse anyone.

Yes, the story pap posted makes good copy. Obviously, what the individual did there was disgusting, and rightly they are being punished - but the part where the prison service admits they fucked up in putting this person - already charged with sexual offences in this prison seems to get skimmed over. That a trans person committed a sexual offence is no more a reflection on the trans community than Harvey Weinstein is a reflection on the cis community. But hey, all of a sudden there is an ‘ulterior motive’.

I mean, sexual assault it rife in society. Ask any woman in your life, have they ever been groped by a guy they didn’t know? What preparations do they take to ensure they aren’t raped at night? How many school age girls get unwanted attention whilst in their school uniform? Maybe, just maybe, we should look at the broader situation occurring here, instead of fretting over a tiny, tiny minority, and using that as a way to demonise an entire (already marginalised group.

Or, just go along with the most sensible thing said on this thread:


#28

Mate

You aren’t a woman (neither am I)

You seem to be responding with the typical hysteria expected from the online media (not saying it is wrong btw). You’re response is textbook deflection- just chuck in every what if to get away from the issue. Sorry.

There are other views and legitimate concerns which you don’t seem to want to acknowledge around the issue of people who self identify as Trans and expect the full backing of law where there isn’t any - law. That’s the place to start - not being shouty in the media. Surely?


#29

The point being?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Bathrooms.
Won’t somebody think of the children?
They’re actually only doing it so they can abuse people.

These are literally the exact tropes of media anti-trans hysteria.

How exactly am I being the hysterical/textbook one here? How does one case of an awful person committing awful acts lead to a big debate against an entire group of people?

Like the points you, and others, are making don’t fall into the same rank and file criticism based on flimsy evidence. How is it any different to concerns that allowing gay men to teach wouldn’t turn kids gay? Or that gay men couldn’t be trusted around young boys, because gay apparently = paedophile? For the sake of clarity, I am not saying you, or anyone else has said this. But these were common tropes trotted out during the struggle for gay rights. All of which were shown to be the utter nonsense they are.

Yeah, exactly. People that have had no legislative protection, whilst facing huge discrimination, would like some.

Most aren’t. As others on here have said, it’s a vocal minority, amplified by a media with an agenda to push. But let’s not also act like every single group that has fought for better rights has been told they are doing it in ‘the wrong way’. They are rarely just granted to people who have just been awful nice about it.


#30

Lads. Just wanted to say that it’s nice to see passionate and antagonistic opinions being expressed without the need for personal abuse.

@KRG, fyi when I see your post criticising the level of debate it actually makes me want to stop posting on the thread, it doesn’t immediately make my concerns go away.

Not suggesting you shouldn’t post what you feel, I hope you know me better than that and I’m pleased you did, but I am so far away from understanding and agreeing with all the issues here that it’s going to take time and debate to bring me round. There are legitimate fears here mixed in with ridiculous conflation of discrete facts and some of us resort to ‘humour’ to deal with issues like this. Shameful when analysed by an outsider but perhaps understandable, if not excusable, when seen in the context of your mates on Sotonians.

You are young (well for the typical Sotonians’ demographic), you live in the wonderfully diverse melting pot of our nation’s capital and you do have Trans friends. You’re just going to have to watch and wait for us ignorant funsters to catch-up. But unless you let us share our concerns, offer support where needed and criticism where required we’ll just take our uneducated views underground.

I really do think I’m open minded, supportive of minorities and someone that believes in live and let live, but as I originally posted above, I just feel completely excluded from this debate by the lexicon and so Ill prepared to empathise by my birth gender configuration and sexual preference.

It’s going to take time for that to change.


#31

No debate here…I’m an old fart.

I haven’t a clue about the Trans nomenclature I’m just “confused of this parish” that’s probably why I say I’ll let the “Trans Community” sort it out themselves. My perceptions aren’t challenged every day, I live a quiet suburban existence but I like to think when socially challenged by the issue will treat those people the same I treat all others. I can’t suggest solutions to problems I’m hardly ever face with…but when I am I’ll let you all know how I got on. :smiley:


#32

As a woman, I have to say that @KRG has written the post I’d have wanted to write if I had the time and inclination to respond to this thread.


#33

Fair enough


#34

When I see people deliberately not debating the topic or trying to understand but making juvenile posts, that makes me want to stop posting. @KRG has explained an awful lot in his post. Sure some people will take time to understand it, but plenty have entered this thread displaying ignorance as some kind of badge of honour.
Nice posts from @dinger as well.


#35

#36

15 posts were split to a new topic: deleted


#37

@Saintbletch it says the thread was split. What’s that about?


#38

It’s because they (redacted) so you can’t (redacted).


#39

I have a passing interest in MMA and I quite like Joe Rogan, remember watching this a while back and I agree in the most part with his sentiment on this very specific issue with regards to trans women being able to compete in combat sports.


#40

Rarely post on here but felt I have an actual ‘worthwhile contribution’. Up until last year I was teaching in secondary schools (now FE). Have had trans students in school for each of last 6 years (two different schools), and the other kids really don’t give a toss. (Maybe that’s because these were schools in, or near, progressive Brighton?). The kids themselves however, were a different story. In every case it was clear that this was the foremost issue that dominated their lives and actions - their education was almost an irrelevance. My view is that any shift in approach that helps to normalise the trans experience is good news. Then we might be able to move beyond the horrendous statistic that ‘over 50% of school children who identify as trans will have attempted suicide before the age of 18’.