🇺🇦 The War/Invasion in/of Ukraine

[Not_Barry]

Selective annexation and democracy Pap, your on fire this morning.

[Cobham-Saint]

@Not_Barry

That statement is whatever you make it, fog of war and psychological for the enemy.

Your statement on plausible deniability?

Hope they aren’t relying on this:

A viral Ukrainian appeal to the ultra-rich: ‘Buy me a fighter jet’

[Polski_Filip]

Among the 1056+ “critical military infrastructure” sites hit by Russias’ “precision bombing” campaig last night was Ukraines’ largest Fertilizer Plant.
As such the cost per Hectare has rocketed from about 200 quid to 1100 quid. For an industry here that was uneconomic before the war.

EU & Polish Gov today implemented an emergency subsidiary scheme trying to get local farmers actually planting grain crops.

Reaction is that 1. It isn’t enough 2. Grain prices could treble 3. we could be fvcked

[pap]

Was catching up with some of the news today.

It has been my understanding that the vast majority of fighting around the Mariupol in the last week has been centred around the Azovstal steel works. This is where the last defenders of Mariupol are.

So why then, are there reports of 1,000 civilians sheltering with them, in the only place that is still getting hammered.

So much stuff failing the sense test, as usual.

[Not_Barry]

Family, injured and children.

[Waylander]

Because the place has a load of cold war era civil defence nuclear bunkers

[Not_Barry]

All I know is they’re as brave as can be, they’ve been given the chance to surrender and they’ve refused, that means no quarter will be given, brave men and women.

[pap]

Yeah, that’s because the people who’ve tried to lay down arms have been shot in the back by their own side for trying.

Soviets did exactly the same in WW2, except that was considerably more hardcore. You’d get shot in the back of the head for not advancing.

[pap]

Still doesn’t make any sense of the context of the battle for that city.

If you’re not being attacked, you don’t need shelter - and the focus of the Russian military has been on clearing those two steelworks up.

In the shoes of those civilians, would your first thought be “a-ha, I’ll go to the only place that still has fierce fighting. There are cold war bunkers there, which I will surely have access to”?

I know mine wouldn’t.

[Not_Barry]

Maybe they’ve seen Bucha, maybe they have family from there so know what happens to civilians.

[Polski_Filip]

It was so much better on this thread when they were arguing about Hawaii

[Cobham-Saint]

Indeed Phil. As you said right at the start of this thread

@Polski_Filip

We are beyond reading posts about the failure of the West.
There is now a need for us to follow the horrific events unfolding in Ukraine and the human stories that are being seen.
Let that thread continue with our recently returned poster typing his I told you so nonsense on the global scale.
Let us use this to analyse the real human tragedies

[pap]

Yeah, a slightly happier subject than potential human shields.

[Not_Barry]

Pap can you actually verify that there are civilians being held as captive in the steel works as all the evidence is to the contrary and the only stuff we here are Russian smears once again, I see Putin is using bunker busting bombs on potential children, women and injured that is against the Geneva convention.
If you use common sense, why is he doing that if there is such small resistance? Very very few Ukrainians wanted this invasion let alone war, Ukrainian Russian speakers included.

Siege tactics as his army can’t or won’t get in, Mariupol will not be forgotten.

[pap]

I just suspect, strongly, that if the roles were reversed you’d be singing a different tune.

Plus I said potential. I don’t think it’s a massive leap considering the punishments your nationalist pals have been undertaking.

Should be moot now anyway. The Russians are simply going to blockade the Azovstal works going forward.

[Not_Barry]

What is wrong with nationalism? There are many forms Pap, Tolstoy was a Russian nationalist, nuance and context, what was the great Patriotic war if it wasn’t unifying a collective form of nationalism from an outside threat?
Like what is happening here Pap, I’ll lend you some books.

[pap]

Would you be happy to describe yourself as a nationalist when meeting new people?

[Not_Barry]

Of course depending on the context Pap, what a silly question, only in this country are we timid of it and we don’t have nationalism in the sense on other nations on the planet.
Do you have a problem with nation states?

[pap]

Yes or no will do, mate.

Is that a yes?

[Not_Barry]

Yes of course why not, why are you squeamish of the word? Heaven knows what they do in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Austria, Belgium etc etc.
Nationalism doesn’t equate to fascism or ultra nationalism all the time Pap, I take it you can’t have national unions or banks or anything.
Putin is aligned to ultra nationalists you know Pap? I can help you link his connection to ultra nationalism in Russia if you want?