šŸ‡ŗšŸ‡¦ The War/Invasion in/of Ukraine

I would think a great deal of the oligarchs wealth in the UK is tied up in property so not particularly liquid

People from dodgy countries effectively shelter cash in the property markets of stable economies. Not for any particular investment (although that is an upside) more that it’s well ā€œsafe as housesā€

That’s why in Singapore you see residential towers with just three lights on at night - the rest are empty but are owned by a lot of SE Asian outside of Singapore when they feel that their capital would be less safe in their home country

The current sanctions mean they cannot sell or mortgage the property in the UK although they still retain ownership

So now we come to the real question- should the UK govt seize these assets for zero compensation? I imagine that would be a popular move at this point in time. But where does it lead?

If the govt makes this first step of appropriating the Russian property, why stop there?

Not sure I am comfortable with the govt developing a taste for arbitrary confiscation of people’s property

I agree. Legally very dodgy ground and the oligarchs can afford the £1000+/hour lawyers to fight it.

Can you tell me what you don’t find credible about?

  1. A speech directly from a Nazis mouth.
  2. A speech directly from an Irish MP’s mouth

The third video is quite obviously an unknown person’s opinion and I’m not claiming that it is proof of anything but it’s from A French TF1 TV show so about as valid as any of the opinions you get on the BBC not that I’d give those much weight either.

The most interesting of those videos is the first one. You’ve got an actual Neonazi Ukrainian leader saying he enjoys killing people, that he has been supplied with weapons by the west to do their tasks. That he has been given so much weaponry by the west that should they defeat Russia he expect the West to turn on them (i.e. they become the issue for the west instead of the Russians). He also talks about how Maidan square would not have been anything more than a gay pride march if not for the involvement of 8–10% Nazis. This is straight from the horse’s mouth stuff. These are the people this Jewish Ukrainian puppet has aligned himself to and who the west are currently cheerleading.

Neither am I. What I find suspect is the Government making all the noises about sanctions but taking so long to do anything about it.

1 Like

Why is there an assumption that seizing the assets of these oligarchs will put pressure on Putin? Putin notoriously got to the position he is in by being absolutely ruthless with oligarchs that didn’t toe the line. He’s as likely to take their assets away from them as the West are. They didn’t have the power to stop him before, so why now?

1 Like

Putin did this by singling out individual oligarchs and picking them off. I imagine the theory runs that if enough oligarchs are pissed off with him then they may have the power to change his direction or remove him. I am not convinced of this, but it could work - something needs to.

He said there were some Nazis in there, we all know that, all young eastern European nations have that fascist element but equally they have left wing alternatives, I repeat all.

Now to the Irish MP, he has a point, of course he does but that is whataboutery and diversion.

Are you showing us this for educational reasons, so some (I’ll only speak for myself) so we’ll retract and say Putin is right to invade a sovereign nation to subjugate them?
What is the purpose? Nuance? Muddying the waters?

Its strange the people going on about Palestine fail to mention other conflicts or only ones that would seem to strengthen their viewpoints and ideals, I point to Congo, 6 million have died there and what have we done?

This is about the invasion on Ukraine, in Europe, whatbaoutery about other invasions/occupations should have their own thread so we’re not thrown of course from debate on Putins actions.

Point of order.
All NATIONS have fascist/neo nazis. Not just those you singled out

1 Like

This is one thing we can agree on, Putin used these people to clean money and they’re the wealthy disposable, he wants a legacy, not money, only the military can bring him down, I’m sure there must be back channeling going on about regime change if true about his illness.

Of course all but we’re talking about eastern Europe, all nations have fascists and many implement fascists ideals even when they use others names for them (Russian pogroms, reeducation camps etc etc), from radical nazis to Farage, eastern Europe have parties that get elected that still are extreme right, Serbia, Poland and Hungary for instance, the further west in Europe you go the more diluted it becomes by and large, the rhetoric toned down due to the nazis legacy.

What problem have you got with Biden telling his puppet to to commit to Ukrainian neutrality?

Ukraine has particular issues.

This is verbatim from the official report of the UN General Assembly plenary of 16 December 2021:

The Assembly next took up the report on ā€œElimination of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intoleranceā€, containing two draft resolutions.

By a recorded vote of 130 in favour to 2 against (Ukraine, United States) , with 49 abstentions, the Assembly then adopted draft resolution I, ā€œ Combating glorification of Nazism, neo‑Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism , racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intoleranceā€.

By its terms, the Assembly expressed deep concern about the glorification of the Nazi movement, neo‑Nazism and former members of the Waffen SS organization, including by erecting monuments and memorials, holding public demonstrations in the name of the glorification of the Nazi past, the Nazi movement and neo‑Nazism, and declaring or attempting to declare such members and those who fought against the anti‑Hitler coalition, collaborated with the Nazi movement and committed war crimes and crimes against humanity ā€œparticipants in national liberation movementsā€.

Further, the Assembly urged States to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination by all appropriate means, including through legislation, urging them to address new and emerging threats posed by the rise in terrorist attacks incited by racism, xenophobia and other forms of intolerance, or in the name of religion or belief. It would call on States to ensure that education systems develop the necessary content to provide accurate accounts of history, as well as promote tolerance and other international human rights principles. It likewise would condemn without reservation any denial of or attempt to deny the Holocaust, as well as any manifestation of religious intolerance, incitement, harassment or violence against persons or communities on the basis of ethnic origin or religious belief.

In Ukraine, support for the Ukrainian nationalist divisions who fought alongside the Nazis has become, over the last eight years, the founding ideology of the modern post 2013 Ukrainian state (which is very different from the diverse Ukrainian state which briefly existed 1991-2013). The full resolution on nazism and racism passed by the General Assembly is lengthy, unnzaires but these provisions in particular were voted against by the United States and by the Ukraine:

  1. Emphasizes the recommendation of the Special Rapporteur that ā€œany commemorative celebration of the Nazi regime, its allies and related organizations, whether official or unofficial, should be prohibited by Statesā€, also emphasizes that such manifestations do injustice to the memory of the countless victims of the Second World War and negatively influence children and young people, and stresses in this regard that it is important that States take measures, in accordance with international human rights law, to counteract any celebration of the Nazi SS organization and all its integral parts, including the Waffen SS;

  2. Expresses concern about recurring attempts to desecrate or demolish monuments erected in remembrance of those who fought against Nazism during the Second World War, as well as to unlawfully exhume or remove the remains of such persons, and in this regard urges States to fully comply with their relevant obligations, inter alia, under article 34 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 1949;

…

  1. Condemns without reservation any denial or attempt to deny the Holocaust;

  2. Welcomes the call of the Special Rapporteur for the active preservation of those Holocaust sites that served as Nazi death camps, concentration and forced labour camps and prisons, as well as his encouragement of States to take measures, including legislative, law enforcement and educational measures, to put an end to all forms of Holocaust denial

Taken from the article here:

Dismiss Craig Murray if you’re that way inclined, but explain Ukraine and US voting this way at the UN?

If you are refering to Zelinsky, I do not recognise him as Biden’s puppet. I don’t think Ukrainian neutrality is a runner now after what has occurred. No-one is going to believe that Russia will respect an agreement. The only possiblity is regime change in Moscow.

So that justifies Ukraine’s invasion?

There is no way Ukraine will take neutrality, they’ve split so much blood for what Putin wants? All they want is for themselves to choose, thats not NATO expansion thats Ukraine asking to join NATO, the same with the EU, there may be a timetable of accession to when they can join ie 10 years but Ukraine has looked away from Russia towards the west for years now, that is what this is all about. Russia’s sphere of influence being eroded, its being eroded in the East by China but they won’t take them on, the Chinese are looking at the stan nations as well, Russia has been dead for years and Putin has only accelerated that
Even Belarus wants to go west and it will do and soon as that puppet dictator Lukashenko goes.
Russia long term has two choices, go west properly and thrive, and it really would or be a large Chinese enclave.

I’ll jump in here.

My wife is Polish. Her family live in a town near to Poznan.

I have two brother in laws there, they have both given up their salary for the last month to send to Ukraine. My sister in laws have both bought guns (yeah you can buy guns in Poland) to defend themselves. My mother and father in law are scared.

They think that if Ukraine falls, Moldova will be next and Poland after that. They think that NATO has no bollocks, that NATO are worried about an escalation that can turn Nuclear.

They have lived under a Russian regime and refuse to do so again. They’re in their 70’s and would rather die than go through that again.

It is very easy to sit wherever you are and comment on this war/invasion but please recognise that hundreds of thousands of people are scared.

Me too.

12 Likes

You aren’t the only one.

1 Like

America should put the Chinese flag on US military aircraft and then ā€œbomb the s—’ out of Russiaā€

I appreciate that sleepy Joe doesn’t inspire much confidence, but that above is what you could have won

1 Like

I think that the statement Billions of people are scared would be more accurate