That is dumb as fuck, some of the greatest patriots have been whistleblowers, agitators and traitors.
The fact is there are borders, you may not agree with them and that is lovely but the fucking border is still there and that wonât change anytime soon.
I take it you wonât vote SNP as theyâre nationalist?
Of course you can sweet cheeks. Yes, apart from when they fuck up on the world stage HTH 
So wrapping yourself in the flag is likely to garner more votes than putting forward well thought out policies? Explains how Trump got himself elected.
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A term, a phrase, nuance if you will, coming closer to the centre for the ones that arenât politically enlightened with the termâŠ
I actually disagree. I think Flag waving negativity stops discussion about Identity
From afar, the UK is divided and in the thrall of get rich quick merchants.
But deeper down, Community & Identity are imho critical.
For many years âpeopleâ have made careers from negativity from getting flags taken down to guilt trips.
Yet Unity behind a collective purpose can be so powerful.
A Flag waving Tommy Robinson is as evil as a Flag removing local council
You dont need Spitfires & Land of Hope & Glory, you just need a new place or vision in the modern world.
Or whatever
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Never would
The people donât have power in this country and never really have. It is run by an oligarchy.
You are debating a proposal by Keir Starmer a stooge of the oligarchy. If this proposal is popular it wonât lead to the people getting power. It will lead to the transfer of power from the oligarchyâs right hand to its left hand.
From the point we are at Barry, please explain the roadmap by which embracing patriotism will result in the people taking back power from the oligarchy?
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Phil
I agree with about half of that but very much against the rest.
There is a real need for solidarity and genuine national pride but the word and political use of âPatriotismâ is way too loaded with negativity and self-interest from twats with political aspirations - and the people swayed by politicians but donât stop to question.
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It means we have a form of Government that is less right wing than now, call it an alternative form of entryism.
Only in this Country, no where else have I ever been on this planet where that word is so derided and toxic.
Patriotism is I agree not the point I was making that is backward little englander shit.
I have seen the power of common purpose (& its faults)
There is a way.
What word Barry? - Include it in your response and explain why, otherwise we havenât a clue about what you mean, unless itâs either an inability to express yourself or just trolling 
Community is one thing, blind loyalty to a piece of cloth another. I live in a small village with a wonderful community spirit yet not a flag of any description in sight. The spirit is fostered from the fact that we are mostly decent human beings who want to help and support our fellow human beings.
Barry bangs on about the evils of religion but it is no worse than the evils of blind nationalism. It is such a relief not to have that MAGA bullshit fed to me everyday on the evening news and I really donât think that Starmer would be wise to overplay the flag business. It works for the right but not so well for the rest. My first thought when I saw that picture of him
and the flag was fuck me heâs doing a Trump. It is what you would expect of Johnson. I donât want Johnson I want something better. That means not pandering to cheap tricks and winning votes through better policies.
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What is the totem that binds the nation togther?
The nation itself.
But only in broken ̶B̶r̶i̶t̶a̶i̶n̶ England are weasel words used as people donât want to be seen to love their Country and look for ways to consistently knock it , all this does is allow parallel lives to continue and tolerance not acceptance, maybe we all have the money to live in areas where that reality doesnât affect us?
Where everyone is learned and everyone is a homeowner with ÂŁ100,000 income combined, children with rosy cheeks and a labrador plus a picket fence but the reality in forgotten mill towns are as segregated as Belfast, Cape Town and Rio de Janeiro.
This is where Labour needs the votes (also middle England and marginals but that is another discussion) the most, their core who didnât vote or voted UKIP last time.
Iâve no doubt the liberal southern Labour elite are dry retching over their hummus with Toby and Zelda at the thought of actually accepting their nation and not intellectually trying to pick it apart whilst living in the benefit of it but needs must.
Seeing as weâre discussing it I thought it wouldnât need to be said.
Patriotism
We can never tell what you are saying in most of your posts so maybe donât just assume weâre tuned in to Planet Baz?
I donât see patriotism that way, and I doubt many others do either. I get the sense you might see it that way, particularly with relation to the EU. e.g. you love it, no matter what. Not the way it manifests itself for me.
I feel it most when I am out of country, say after three long weeks of dealing with infectiously optimistic Americans. I find myself missing my people, their sense of humour, their decipherable sincerity and most of all, the fact I fucking understand them.
Does that equate to supporting your country no matter what? I donât think so. I think itâs having enough faith and love in your fellow citizen that you donât want to be anywhere else, and believe me, Iâve had plenty of opportunities to go somewhere else.
I normally fly in and out of Manchester on foreign trips. On returning, I almost want to kiss the ground. I donât because itâs Manchester and itâs fucking filthy.
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Isnât it more that you have a sense of relief, for want of a better phrase, to return to the familiar, your comfort zone or whatever? I suspect people who live in places that are much worse than the UK will have that sense of âplaceâ - which isnât necessarily a good thing.
Love the Madchester comment btw 
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Itâs not entirely a British thing. Itâs just what youâre used to. I am used to:-
- Miserable and sarcastic people
- Detectable sincerity
- People not being armed to the fucking gills in a bar
- Marmite
My point is that patriotism, for me, is not about flag or empire or whatever. Itâs about wanting a group of people that I largely like, respect and love do well.
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Patriotism for me is a love of Country but it doesnât have to be like all the others around do it, blind and overbearing, strange our liberal lot donât feel squeamish about that?
Why?
The flags of foreign lands masks racists just the same as it does here so why are they so ashamed and snobby about it?
For me its the people, the machinery, the shite weather but beautiful green we get from that, our humour is something quite special as well, the dry cynical sharpness of it really is a thing of beauty.