Perhaps I’m being dense here, but how do you know all of this about your jeweller if it’s never come up when you were talking to him?
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How is “Inshallah” comparable to “Have a nice day”? It means “God willing”
a true integrated society would have the American saying “Have a nice day” to which the Muslim replies “Inshallah” and then says “merry Christmas”
the above only works at Christmas time.
don’t be snide, you whopper.
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How many non Kashmiri/Pakistani evangelical Christians do you meet in Goa? No he is as there are many Kashmiri’s in Goa, went there as the Goa is tolerant and thats where the money is. I also have a good friend who runs a beach shack there and also a really good restaurant, he is of the same with a twist, Kashmiri/Pakistani but Indian born, he can’t even get a passport due to well in simple terms he isnt classed as anyone even though he is married to a Brit. Long story.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Originally posted by @Fowllyd
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
He is, I don’t refer to him as Muslim though, I refer to him as a Jeweller and a good bloke, thats is my point I don;t define him by a religion. He always sends Christmas cards as well, funny that, thats integration isn’t it? A Kasmiri/Pakistani Muslim sending Christmas cards from an old Portugese enclave in India. Strange it has never come up when were talking as we couldnt give a shite as were good people, or try to be.
Perhaps I’m being dense here, but how do you know all of this about your jeweller if it’s never come up when you were talking to him?
How many non Kashmiri/Pakistani evangelical Christians do you meet in Goa? No he is as there are many Kashmiri’s in Goa, went there as the Goa is tolerant and thats where the money is. I also have a good friend who runs a beach shack there and also a really good restaurant, he is onf the same witha twist, Kashmiri/Pakistani but Indian born, he can’t even get a passport due to well in simple terms he isnt classed as anyone even though he is married to a Brit. Long story.
Sorry, I couldn’t make head nor tail of that. Except the last sentence, which I could understand.
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Cool.
For this to even be an intelligent discussion (I wont say debate since there is fuck all TO debate, unless wanting to pretend there is in an effort to troll…in a fuckwit kind of way), you need to understand that social integration is merely a stepping stone to cultural evolution… and its cultural evoltion that sees harmony, not social integration.
Cultures evolve over a much longer period of time- thank fuck we no longer burn folks at a stake for dabbling in things we dont understand, or brand women who have been unfaithful with scarlet ‘S’ s - our cultural compass and direction has gone beyond that… and evolved into a huge steaming pile of shit, obsessed with self. From selfies to the belief that somehow its a right to spout shit on twitter and that anyone is actually interested. The idea that we are all fucking celebrities in our own little world is a fucking disspointment…
…But typically culture has evolved BECAUSE of the gradual integration of other ideas, beliefs and peoples who bring their own values and identify and as this is absorbed our own, culture’ shifts … no amount of racist or bigotted shit can stop it thankfully, but that does not stop them trying. Sadly, they use a ‘generational’ argument - the old ‘if you come here, then forget your own shit and live like us or fuck off’’ - the sort of welcome that really helps when looking to represent a rational argument why some historic prctaices might need updating a tad.
Shouting REALLLY LOUDLY about how ‘Mo Ali’ down the road wont let his sister go out with john smith, or that he hates gays as they are abomination… well it was illegal here as well until the 60s to so maybe we should not be the first to start throwing stones in this particular glass house. We have enough fucking bigotted racist arseholes who hate gays of our own, probably more than the total muslim population in the UK… something which our resident fucktard knows only too well, but wont stop him on this thread, spouting his ignorance (in an attempt to up his strike rate).
Individuals decide. Integration followed by evolution requires time, as it did with the Norse, Romans, Saxons, French… the same with more structured and disciplined belief systems, the cultural influence of our secular and more liberal culture will eventually shift attitudes… or would do if we were not also trying to fuck them over at every opportunity… building an ingrained hatred for for our ‘wayof life’ in a culture that has a different perspective on the afterlife to our lapsed judeo-christian belief system is perhaps not the smartest of moves… as we have seen, calling them all cunts and terrorists has got us where exactly? Backwards… From te 50s and 60s where many Arab countrues were waht we woudl consider quite western to to a regression to more extreme doctrine - why? Well the west had a big part in that…
Looking at this over a 50-100 year time span as most people do (humans struggle with the concept time beyond our own lifespans) is as pointless as it is ineffective. You simple wont see what you would like to see… because there will never be INTEGRATION, there will be evolution of culture into something the new society is equallyinvested in… unless you want to marginalise certain folks and keep them out for other more sinster ideals. To those who insiste on hanging on to ‘traditional British values’’ canyou point out a) what these were in 1950 and b) show me how they are still the same or that you would want them to be?
This is not some political sandal wearing shit… but its a fact. Using a 50-75 year time span to illustrate this point is simply WRONG and any anthropologist would tell you so.
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Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Lets all get on without the snide crap, would you say it to my face? I’d respect you more if you did trust me.
One of my best mates (of 25 years plus) has exactly the same debating style as you, Bazza. And I mean _exactly. _His arguments appear to be kneejerk, reactionary, and ill thought through. When you actually give him the time to express himself clearly he makes a lot more sense. He’s still wrong and I tell him to his face all the time - especially when he’s being deliberately provocative/obtuse. He also deliberately winds people up. Sometimes he winds people up unintentionally. The resemblance is uncanny. You may well think I making this up in pursuit of some boring, elaborately made point - I’m genuinely not.
Myself and several of our mates have stopped talking to him on any topic that merits serious thought because it’s just not worth it. He’s learning…maybe you could take a leaf out of his book.
He’s 43 so I reckon you’ve got a 2 year head start on him.
6 Likes
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
For this to even be an intelligent discussion (I wont say debate since there is fuck all TO debate, unless wanting to pretend there is in an effort to troll…in a fuckwit kind of way), you need to understand that social integration is merely a stepping stone to cultural evolution… and its cultural evoltion that sees harmony, not social integration.
Cultures evolve over a much longer period of time- thank fuck we no longer burn folks at a stake for dabbling in things we dont understand, or brand women who have been unfaithful with scarlet ‘S’ s - our cultural compass and direction has gone beyond that… and evolved into a huge steaming pile of shit, obsessed with self. From selfies to the belief that somehow its a right to spout shit on twitter and that anyone is actually interested. The idea that we are all fucking celebrities in our own little world is a fucking disspointment…
…But typically culture has evolved BECAUSE of the gradual integration of other ideas, beliefs and peoples who bring their own values and identify and as this is absorbed our own, culture’ shifts … no amount of racist or bigotted shit can stop it thankfully, but that does not stop them trying. Sadly, they use a ‘generational’ argument - the old ‘if you come here, then forget your own shit and live like us or fuck off’’ - the sort of welcome that really helps when looking to represent a rational argument why some historic prctaices might need updating a tad.
Shouting REALLLY LOUDLY about how ‘Mo Ali’ down the road wont let his sister go out with john smith, or that he hates gays as they are abomination… well it was illegal here as well until the 60s to so maybe we should not be the first to start throwing stones in this particular glass house. We have enough fucking bigotted racist arseholes who hate gays of our own, probably more than the total muslim population in the UK… something which our resident fucktard knows only too well, but wont stop him on this thread, spouting his ignorance (in an attempt to up his strike rate).
Individuals decide. Integration followed by evolution requires time, as it did with the Norse, Romans, Saxons, French… the same with more structured and disciplined belief systems, the cultural influence of our secular and more liberal culture will eventually shift attitudes… or would do if we were not also trying to fuck them over at every opportunity… building an ingrained hatred for for our ‘wayof life’ in a culture that has a different perspective on the afterlife to our lapsed judeo-christian belief system is perhaps not the smartest of moves… as we have seen, calling them all cunts and terrorists has got us where exactly?
Looking at this over a 50-100 year time span as most people do (humans struggle with the concept time beyond our own lifespans) is as pointless as it is ineffective. You simple wont see what you would like to see… because there will never be INTEGRATION, there will be evolution of culture into something the new society is equallyinvested in… unless you want to marginalise certain folks and keep them out for other more sinster ideals. To those who insiste on hanging on to ‘traditional British values’’ canyou point out a) what these were in 1950 and b) show me how they are still the same or that you would want them to be?
This is not some political sandal wearing shit… but its a fact. Using a 50-75 year time span to illustrate this point is simply WRONG and any anthropologist would tell you so.
What do you think cultures will concede on, what rights?
You miss the point - its not about concession, its about evolution- its not whether idea A wins over idea B… but about how idea C or D becomes the new accepted norm that all are invested in… trying to impose A (or B) on everyone doe not lead to integration
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So no womens rights or gays rights will be lost? Surely cutures will have to concede?
The Society of the future will decisde, not the soceity of today… yes we hope it will evolve into something we would approve of, but that is not a given… same with biological evolution, cultural evoilution does not always go in the direction we see as best, but in the direction it is driven. Our own society is one in which we see more vocal disapproval of foreigners… is this what we want?, No. can we stop it if the majority feel that way? No… I aint angry with about Brexit because I ‘lost’ (FFS The way I vote I have lost more times than won, am used to it - so those twats who keep shouting ‘get over it’ are missing the fucking point), no I am angry because of how its empowered those with more bigotted views to take a front seat… its these attitudes of the insular that will form our future… and for me that is a scary thing.
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The simple fact is that if he’d issued those statements under his real name and used Barry’s real name and those accusations lacked any evidential merit, he’d be paying Barry a lot of money.
It’s not libel _because _of the anonymity, and that is the only reason. It is a disgraceful accusation to make without foundation, and it is without foundation. His penultimate message to me stated that he was trying to “see where the line was”.
Taking him at his word, he made this disgraceful accusation without foundation, which is only not libel because parties are anonymous (and shall remain so), and directed it at Barry, in order to find out how the Sotonians moderation team would react.
I am heartened by the fact Cherts’ post attracted seven downvotes (last time I saw the admin panel). I wasn’t as impressed with people spending the next day trivialising child abuse by bunging the paedo label about in some twisted form of solidarity, then fucking moaning about it when I reminded people of the seriousness of the charge.
Hi Barry.
You said…
This is the first time we learned about your jeweller friend.
Originally posted by Barry Sanchez
I’ve been to Goa many times and celebrated Holi day but I don’t say I’ve celebrated with a Hindu I say I had a laugh with a person, same with my Jeweller who is Kasmiri and also a Muslim , he is a good bloke who is a Jeweller, I simply don’t see that in someone, if your good your good thats all that matters.
So the first time we were introduced to your jeweller friend, you refer to him as a Muslim.
Even though you subsequently assured us that you " don’t refer to him as a Muslim though".
Why?
And why did you say you don’t?
And why then lambast SoG for bringing the religion of him barber to this thread?
I’m outraged…
Actually, I’ll let you into a little secret, Barry.
I’m not outraged.
I understand why you did it.
It was germane to the context of the discussion we were having.
You wouldn’t ordinarily concern yourself with the beliefs of people - I believe that is what you’re saying, but as it fits into the context of the discussion, you now feel it’s relevant and have shared it in that context.
That makes sense. I don’t think any less of you (really).
I think that’s probably the same thought process that SoG followed. You both seem to have considered the beliefs of the people you know as important to share because they add to the discussion we hare having.
Can you see that?
[At this point I’d prefer you to stick to this discussion and not take us to Peru, discuss the dimensions of the infamous Kraken or call me (or anyone) a whopper.]
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What a horrible thought, human rights come before any custom or cultural practice. A retraction of human rights isn’t progression and I one I would fight against with all I have.
As I said the old passive aggresive, as old as the hills.
I have never posted anything i wouldn’t happily say to your face Barry. What kind of question is that?
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Nothing in this statement is relevent to my post so not sure what you are trying to say. I have not been discussing human rights but the concept of cultural evolution… ‘Human rights’ are a concept that our currnent civilisation is still struggling with… the US waterboarding suspects and retaining them without trial is often forgotten in the vitriolic anger of those struggling with arranged marriage and honor killings… The point being that for these things to change needs a majority view and time… trying to link this to a moment in time and label it social integration is simply wrong, overly simplistic and only serves the purpose of division…because you will NEVER see social integration in an isolated time period *50-70 years
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Cool, if we meet up you can say it, all good.
This is the trouble with liberalism. Liberal values and rights conflict with each other very fucking directly. The right to practice one’s religion (and the ability to discriminate against gay people for instance - the Christian bakery in Northern Ireland being a great example), conflicts with the right of gay people to avail themselves of all the services and businesses in society without fear of discrimination.
At some point you have to jump off the fence and decide which ‘rights’ trump which.