This is a direct quote from Ms Proudman from a recent radio interview saying that Carter_Silk’s comments were “the first step on the sexism continuum that ends with violence against women.”
Really? Men have been complimenting women and trying their luck with women for thousands of years. It is the reason there are so many of us here. It is a massive leap to say that because (some) men think it is okay to make a comment to a woman, it follows that they think it is ok to slap women around.
CL posted earlier about harrassment at work. I am not sure if all three were single incidents or happen a number of times but clearly harrassment of other people be it in the workplace or outside, is not acceptable.
If Carter Silk had sent more than one response in the same vein I would have said that were unacceptable but he didnt, when rebuffed he apologised. We have all tried it on and I am sure we have all been rebuffed but that doesnt mean that we then think we can hit women. The people who hit women (or other men for that matter) clearly have things going on that have a lot more to do with an understanding of what is acceptable or not to say to a woman. Domestic violence does not always consist of men hitting women. There are plenty of instances where men have been assaulted by women (I have experienced that first hand) so I wonder where Ms Proudman (or whatever her real name is) thinks that continuum started?
You keep circling back to the same points and we’re now on page seven of this thread, so I don’t have anything more to add to what’s already been said. Look at it this way. Sexual harassment, like any form of bullying, is in the eye of the beholder. That means that if someone tells you they object, then you have to accord respect to that point of view. I just don’t get your essentially narcissistic view that you should be the one to decide that she is wrong to be offended.
SOG - compliment is your word, not hers. Many women at work, in business mode, expecting to be respected for the accomplishments, won’t consider being called a stunner (or their photo, whatever) a compliment. They consider it a bit insulting. Like I said in a previous post, he’s treating her like a pretty little bit of fluff.
What she’s referencing is the theory that the sexual objectification of women, and the assumption that women first and foremost are there to turn on men, look pretty, etc etc, is dangerous and can lead to control/violence.
I think to disagree with someone’s perspective on something, you first have to put yourself in their shoes to try and understand where they’re coming from, because their world and experiences may be very different from yours. I just don’t think you’re doing this. On any level. If you want to try and understand this perspective more, I’m more than happy to help. But if you just want to keep getting angry at a woman for rejecting a man’s ‘compliment’ then I think I’m done.
So, I happened to read the Sun this morning (I know, I know) and I stumbled upon Jane Moore’s page, she has this to say about the outrage this week
Clumsy? Yes. Irrelevant? Yes. But hardly cause to paint him as Public Enemy No1 in the fight against sexism
And yet scores of young women publicly supported Charlotte in, as they saw it, her brave stance against oppresive sexist behaviour from a middle-aged dinosuar.
To which I say this: Had it been another woman complimenting Charlotte on her “stunning” (professioanlly lit) photograph, how would she have reacted?
Chances are she would have either ignored it or said thank you.
But then neither of those reactions would have propelled her in to the headlines.
To my mind, it was her sexist bigotry towards a man that was the issue, not the other way round.
And I believe the majority of women around my age (many of whom will have experienced real sexism in their lives) will agree with me.
In other words, not everything is a male plot to demean women and their achievements.
Feminism, as I was brought up to understand it, was about wanting equal rights for men and women and the freedom to choose the life we wish.
If the modern way is to use it as a stick to beat men with over every perceived slight, then count me out.
Call my cynical but I think Ms. Proudman saw an oppurtunity to get her 5 minutes of fame and it worked!
Read another interesting take on this story last night. Ms proudman could have redacted her picture and name from his comments and put that out there which would have put the focus entirely upon him. He would have faced the media storm and would have to have justified himself. As it is, she has become the central focus of the story. But then maybe that was her aim all along?
I used to book prosecutors from Chambers when I worked for the CPS. Some would have a picture on their profile, some didnt. I didnt matter because we didnt care what they looked like. We are only interersted in their relevant experience, how many years at the Bar etc. All we wanted to do was to win the case - there were no points for the best looking Counsel. Ms Proudman has said that she had had more than one comment about her photo that she hasnt cared for. The answer is simple, remove your picture. It has no relevance to the work you are likely to get so what is the problem?
SOG - compliment is your word, not hers. Many women at work, in business mode, expecting to be respected for the accomplishments, won’t consider being called a stunner (or their photo, whatever) a compliment. They consider it a bit insulting. Like I said in a previous post, he’s treating her like a pretty little bit of fluff.
What she’s referencing is the theory that the sexual objectification of women, and the assumption that women first and foremost are there to turn on men, look pretty, etc etc, is dangerous and can lead to control/violence.
I think to disagree with someone’s perspective on something, you first have to put yourself in their shoes to try and understand where they’re coming from, because their world and experiences may be very different from yours. I just don’t think you’re doing this. On any level. If you want to try and understand this perspective more, I’m more than happy to help. But if you just want to keep getting angry at a woman for rejecting a man’s ‘compliment’ then I think I’m done.
Yes Lou, compliment is my word not hers. I have used it consistantly because that is what he has done, paid her a compliment. Fair enough, she didnt feel it was appropriate for him to say something nice about her photograph. In your opinion he is treating her like a prerty bit of fluff. He could also of course just think that she has a nice picture and was complimenting her on it. To go from there to violence against women it to simply the arguement. Men and women have been judging each other since time began. It is what we do. You seem to be accusing me of not understanding or not wanting to understand the women’s perspective which might work but many women share my viewpoint in this case, so perhaps not. Perhaps you dont understand a man’s perspective? I can assure you that not all men will say a nice thing about a woman just to have sex with her. Carter-Silk made a complimenary remark about his daughter’s photo and you would like to think that he has no intention of wanting to have sex with her. How do we know that Carter-Silk does not respect Ms Proudman’s accomplishments? This fuss has come about by a couple of sentences in a one off exchange.
Women objectify men too. They do it is social situations, they do it at work. They may not be as vocal or forthright about as men do but my wife has shared the conversations she has with her mates on a night out and that are often a lot more full on than conversations I have with the guys.
I made a point earlier about how differently she could have handled the situation - talking it to the Head of Chambers and making a formal complaint rather than going to Twitter, but you dont seem to want to engage in that side of the discussion. You make another assumption in your comment "if you just want to keep getting angry at w man rejecting a man’s “compliment.” For a start I am not angry. I dont care if she rejects his attempt at flattery or not. It is her choice how she deals with this situation, but I think she has made a poor choice (as do many other people, including woman).
If you want to help me out, then please explain how his comments do not fall into the category of a compliment. I am long out of the dating game but I see no sign of anything in those couple of sentences that suggest anything other than a misjudged attempt to pay someone a compliment. How that leads to violence against women I also struggle with. It is a huge leap between thinking it is ok with make a comment about someone’s looks (which you must admit) goes on all the time on the Internet) and hitting someone. My understanding that men who cause violence or rape do so from a basis of a power issue. What angers me is the way that it has been used as a stick to beat the awful men who should know better with. I still think that fact that he is much older has a lot to do with it. You havent asked my question about whether you think she would have outed one of the guys she made comments about on FB if he had written to her on LI the way Carter-Silk did. We will never know of course but I do wonder.
yeah i think tweeting out private messages, if that’s what she done, is Bad Form generally, but the insinuations that this was some sort of masterplan to gain fame, publicity, and a lucrative offer from i.e. Playboy, seems a bit of a stretch!
I’ve no doubt whatsoever you’re a nice dude. But seriously, the “you can’t even compliment a woman anymore” look isn’t a good one.
It’s inappropriate to approach someone out of the blue, and compliment their looks/photo if you don’t know. Especially in what is an ostensibly professional setting.
This can lead to violence as this attitude perpetuates itself. Men can feel insulted that women are not accepting of their unwelcome advances. It’s entitlement. Why on earth would you expect someone you don’t know to react positively to you commenting on them?
This is bourne out of the same attitude that makes people angry when their advances are rejected. It’s lead people to call women on the recieving end ungrateful, for not meekly smiling and courtseying when some rando bloke tells them they have nice tits or similar.
I’ve seen this first hand when I guy complimented on my gf’s shorts, which she ignored. He then called her a c**t, said her arse was lovely and grabbed it (whilst I do not condone violence, I have never in my life been prouder of that girl than watching her crack him round the face, and him limp away only to be hauled outside by the bouncers, who weren’t overly impressed by his behaviour either). I know this is pretty micro, but it is essentially the same pattern.
For women, this can happen daily. Not just online, but in the street, at work, on the train/bus, in bars. And yes, it can be scary.
This attitude of men policing how women should react to mens advances absolutely needs to stop. As does the idea that intent is golden, even if he was just trying to pay someone a compliment - that does not mean that is acceptable. This idea of the poor wounded man, upset at getting rebuked over creepy behaviour is more important that a woman feeling safe needs to stop.