🇷🇺 Russia

:ru: Russia
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#21

Just what is it you don’t like about Muslims Barry?

I don’t get why you single out a specific faith. Ffs Christianity in it’s various current forms cause enough pain and suffering in the world - admittedly they’re not going ape-shit crazy like IS…more the kiddy-fiddling type of thing in the UK tbf.

Did someone do something bad to you when you were little?


#22

Can’t I comment on racist and fascist actions in the name of a non proven theory?

The Chechens should be laughed at for their backwardness and intolerant behaviour, no we should be taking in the subjugated from that republic no question.


#23

There we go to even it up.


#24

I’m pretty disappointed with the general British attitude towards Russia sadly echoed by many who have posted on this thread.

It’s abundantly clear that our government, media and allies have elements which are massively hostile towards Russia, but I would hope that a group of people who generally have a good track record for spotting manipulative media propaganda would be able to resist those forces and take a more balanced view. It seems not.

I’ve visited Russia and the former soviet union as it was around 20 times over the years. I have many friends there and I take an especially strong interest in following the output of the western media and the opinions of British people with respect to a country and people that I have a strong affinity for.

What I observe disgusts me. Essentially hypocrisy, disrespect and racism.

I don’t really have the inclination to justify those statements any further right now. I would just generally like to ask people to be a little more critical of what they read about Russia in the media and to have a bit more respect for a different culture, a different ways of life and a people who have been persecuted and intererfered with by the West to a far greater degree then we have by them. Some of the things I hear said about Russians (on this thread even) are outrageous. If they were said about Black Africans for example people would be up in arms about it.


#25

Is it true Russians from the west see themselves as superior to the indigenous eastern peoples?


#26

Barry, is it true that people from England generally see themselves as superior to sweaty Jocks like Tokio?


#27

Well you’ve got me there but I think I was referring more to wide spread discrimination that has been reported on of minorities in the country.


#28

Barry, I have refrained from commenting on your integration thread, although I have read many of the posts there.

In contrast with some people on here, I have sympathy with your argument that integration is not happening in the UK between Muslims and the prexisiting majority of the population. Like you, I lay the blame for this at the door of religion but also on the aggressive actions of Western governments and the circus that goes with that. I am not a fan of religion in any form whatsoever. It is backward, divisive and too easily used as a tool to exert control over a captive population. I think we have some common ground there (but perhaps I misunderstand).

Where we apparently diverge is when you hold up the UK, the West and Christianity as an example for the other civilisations of the world to emulate. Apparently without recognition that our own way of life, the organisation of our own society, is deeply flawed and in some ways inferior to the places on which you would apparently like to impose our supposed shared values. There are aspects of Russian and Islamic society which are unquestionably backwards, but those societies are able to level equivalent allegations at our own society (some rather random examples in no particular order, glorification of violence in Western entertainment media, recreational usage of alcohol, breakdown of family structures and abandonment of the elderly to carehomes, How’s Britains space programme? prevalence of consumerism and debt within the population at large) Further, you must take account of the historical and geographical context when considering the state of those civilisations. I detect an unjustified level of arrogance to your assertions. If someone points that out and suggests that perhaps our supposed traditional British/Western values are not all their made out to be, your default reposte appears to be to accuse the person of self hating as if to be ashamed of the place you were born is an unthinkable thing.

I embrace your accusation. I genuinely detest a lot of what British society is and what it stands for. The Monarchy, the land owners, the government, the common people, the politics, the institutions, the culture, the history and the arrogance. There is an awful lot there that I am ashamed to be associated with. So many things that we are told we should be proud of are illusory when you dig past the surface. It’s part of the reason I don’t live there anymore. I am still tied to it though and I have every right to criticise it.

If my point has been lost in the rant let me make it again more simply, People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Your criticism of Russia and Islamic society boils down to that.


#29

Light blue touch paper and stand well back.

Nice post SWDP


#30

Alcohol abuse? Russia certainly has that, family breakdowns have happened with many reasons but in the main they’ve been allowed to because of religious freedoms and womens emancipation, something well worth paying I would hope you agree.

In Human rights and laws we’re miles ahead, why do so many want to live here from places around?

Britains space program? I can’t really answer on where we are and where we’re going on that but it didn’t really help the starving worker in the Soviet Union did it? In Britain we’d take the piss for calling it chest beating cod shite, when others do it we applaud it, a great marker to your Nation, values and prosperity is doing is to how many want to live in that said World and sphere, you fancy being an average Russian or Somalian?

Russia is losing its sphere of influence hence the invasion of Crimea, (Eu’s fault for pressing Ukraine into a corner on joining NATO and the like) and dipping its toes all along its borders with other former states interfering.

The West and the UK are far from perfect but we’re the best there is, name a better?

Human Rights - The West

Religious Freedoms - The West

Why are we the best for those?

There is no default position I fall back on as I am allowed to criticise our religions and laws and long may that continue, others have a more backward closed stance.


#31

I certainly do not hold up christianity as a beacon, from the reformation onwards there was a huge surge in rights, welfare and prosperity, from this came a more scientific approach and in turn the questioning itself of religion, other relgions haven’t fully had this transition and nor are they being allowed to, again backward ie retaining power on peoples ignorance.


#32

Good contributions, @stickywhitedovepiss

When starting this thread, I did wonder whether racism might be too strong a card, hence my framing the issue as a question. I have my own issues with the catch-all term racism. Like in this case, it’s often inappropriately applied at national level. Russia is a Federation representing multiple races within one country.

That’s why I asked if it was simple racism.

Of course, we wouldn’t be the first Westerners to try and distil that huge mass into one, easily understandable blob. Hitler tried it too, imagining the entire expanse to be populated with easily defeatable untermencshen, unworthy of being there in the first place.

In our case though, there’s really no excuse. The Nazis had all the apparatus of state and media at their disposal when drumming up their campaign against the Soviets; their citizenry didn’t have much in the way of additional information or dissenting voices.

We live in an age where such information is readily available, including the option to hear it straight from the horse’s mouth on channels like RT. Given all that, I find it astonishing that people can be so easily walked to a specific spot, whistled at, and told what to bark at.

The hypocrisy over homosexuality alone is a great example. I know a majority of our regular posters and wouldn’t suggest an ounce of homophobia in them. That all said, I don’t we’ve ever had a thread where we discuss the persecution of homosexuals in the abstract, it sometimes comes up in relation to Saudi. It nearly always pops up on threads about Russia.

Pheep. Woof.


#33

War Barry, you forget war. Death and destruction of the innocent is by far the Wests greatest achievement and not one fucking word. Shame on you, have you no pride in the millions that have been killed in your name?

Then there’s finance/banks. Don’t forget the whole countries that our banks have destroyed with debt.

Political interference, we’re well known for that as well. You know, unlawfully interfering in another countries affairs for our own gain. You remember surely.

Lots to be proud of for sure, if you like death.


#34

Russia doesn’t interfere in other Nations affairs? Saudi doesn’t either I suppose? Wars? Russia is pretty good at that on its own, Stalin?

This is the shite World we live in and it happens EVERYWHERE, not just the West but EVERYWHERE, are you saying we’re all bad and all others are good?

I couldn’t live in such a place I despise and hate, acknowledge the good as well as the bad.


#35

So when are you moving and to which country?


#36

Who are you calling a woof?


#37

I don’t plan to move but as always am open to it, where is your next move? Tolerant Chechyna, Sudan or Pakistan?


#38

U.S. military expenditure is roughly the size of the next seven largest military budgets around the world, combined.

A comparison of US firepower with Russian fire power

Viewing those statistics from an impartial standpoint, which is the civilisation best placed to project it’s power and interfere in the affairs of other nations?

From a historical perspective give examples where Russia or Iran has interfered in the affairs of other nations anywhere close to the extent with which the main Western players have.

The interference doesn’t stop at the projection of military might. As SOS has also pointed out, the West exerts pressure on the rest of the world through finance and its domination of the banking sector.

The West’s interest in Human Rights and religious freedom is a relatively modern phenomenon (how long ago was gay marriage legalised in the UK?) You will still find plenty of absolutely mental communities in the US that don’t live up to the headline billing of tolerance the West likes to portray.

What do you really know about life as a gay person in Pakistan?

By that token what do you really know about life in the enormous multicultural expanse of Russia that Pap describes? You claim that English Southerners don’t have a clue about life in Liverpool yet your opinions on Russia and the Islamic world are untouchable.

If we really are better than these other civilisations at Human Rights and Religious Freedoms perhaps it is because we can afford the luxury, since our position within the world is so dominant.

It’s nice to see a like from @minsk on one of my comments above. I often enjoyed his contributions on the other forum. I’m sure he could add an interesting perspective to this discussion.


#39

Good, well reasoned post @stickywhitedovepiss

Could do with more reasoned argument on some other recent threads tbf.


#40

I’m interested Baz, when you read SWDP’s first post earlier, was there anything about it that struck a chord and made you think 'hmm, good point, maybe things aren’t as black and white as they seem’. I ask as someone, who a page ago held the lazy, stereotypical view of Russia that SWDP pertained to but now, for today at least, has been given food for thought.

I’m not picking on you, you know that. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that everything you post is complete bollocks, I’m actually quite sympathetic to many of your thoughts on various matters.

I just can’t understand how you can read an intelligent and informed post and not acknowledge that even parts of it might have some relevance. I’m not the first to point the finger at your rather bullish, unyielding manner in responding to posts you’ve physically read but seemingly, not really processed.