Good post, Halo.
Your anxieties are in a similar place to mine. My only hope is that this isn’t what the people want. People want to live normal free lives. We have to support that, however we do it. ISIS is not winning a battle of ideologies, they’re just brutalising people.
Vey interesting and thought provoking piece Halo. But whilst I understand how this can lead to a sense of hopelessnes - given the complexities, I still believe a resolution is there IF the right people want it bad enough.
I do though think a solution lies first in understanding the problem. I appreciate the complexity that you mention, but without truely understanding the cause and causes in detail, we can not hope to find solutions. There is no blanket,one size fits all. There is certainly no answer in simply looking to bomb our way our of trouble (even if they are wiped out, it merely seeds the problem for generations down the line) . It wont be ‘a solution’ it will be a high number of small incremental steps that given time will reverse what has been created. Also it wont be overnight, but will require a gradual errosion. The problem is that most Western Governments want rapid action, demonstrate a ‘fist first’ that they believe shows strength to their electorate… short termist perspectives will not win out…
But I remain hopeful for a simple reason. The MAJORITY of people for ALL cultures and religiions do not want this. Muslims do not want this. Its why its so important that there is a clear demonstration of unity and compassion IMHO. How we manage and support the refugees will play a big part in it. Our compassion and respect must overcome our fear even if there are some of these terrorists looking to hide amongst the the masses of innocents - we cant let this stop us showing what is best about our culture. The sad thing is, our Governments tend to offer only the worst.
But part of this is these people are in communities shut off from the rest of us, the people living there wont tell the authorities, parallel lives.
It has been repeated a few times too as people have used it in a quote. It is very upsetting and the mods should do something about the pix. Apart from being disrespectul to those poor souls who died, how must their love ones or friends feel if they come across the picture? I am not one for censorship but there is a line to be drawn here.
Originally posted by @Halo-Stickman
Descriptions of IS as mere criminals, psychopaths, uneducated religious fanatics etc are complacently simplistic: the psychology driving their appeal, especially their appeal to young people, is, disturbingly, far more complex, imo
The debate as to how our 21st century world has arrived at a situation whereby people dismiss fellow humans as infidels or apostates before inflicting unspeakable atrocities upon them is an interesting one; but far more pertinent, and probably more difficult, is the debate as to where the fuck we go from here.
Any belief that the non-IS world can rationalise with, negotiate with, or in anyway appease IS is naive to the point of absurdity, imo.
To do nothing - i.e. allow IS to gain ever more territory unopposed - is an unpalatable option, especially for those not prescribing to IS’s doctrines, which, of course, includes millions of neighbouring Muslims, many, many of whom have already been mercilessly slaughtered by IS.
Increasing the rate of air strikes serves to increase the rate of new IS recruits. Adopting isolationist policies - closing borders etc. - will, almost certainly, ultimately, serve likewise.
Increasing arms supplies and other support to neighbouring armies or militias has proved in the past to be problematic - to put it mildly.
Sending Western ground troops is exactly what IS wants: it has been prophesied and will signify the beginning stages of The Apocalypse, apparently. Whether or not that proves to be the case, it’s impossible to imagine anything other than bloody carnage.
In short, it’s all a miserable, depressing, brain-fuck.
Thank heavens it’s Friday.
This is an interesting read, imo - albeit quite long and written in March
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
Edit: I’ve just realised it’s only Thursday, ffs.
I think that one of the reasons that many are depicting these terrorists as psycopaths etc is to try and distance them from the Mulsims as a whole. As soon as you say Islamic Terrorist you stick a religious label on that some people find it hard to separate from the peacekeeping majority. These people have a choice and they have chosen for whatever reason, to do something that most sane and reasnable people would not do. There are approx 1.6 billion people on this plantet who call themselves Muslims. The vast majority of these people are peaceful and find these atrocties as sickening as the rest of us. Sadly there are those who are not wired in the way that most people are and they seek to find an outlet for their issues in ways that are outside of what we all believe is a decent moral code. Some of these use a religious pretext to justify their actions but it really has little to do with religion. If they werent fighting for ISIS they would find other ways of dealing with their issues that would probably see them in jail or at odds with the law in some way or other. Psychopaths, sociopaths, brainwashed, whatever. These are not “normal” people.
But their communities must in some part at least believe in a part of what they are doing otherwise they would have been given up to the authorities? The same can be said of Loyalists and Nationalists in Northern Ireland, holding hands and shouting for peace will only work if the people and communities actually want it and wrestle the power from militants.
I cant speak for all of them but you often hear that people who know them are very surprised to find out that they are terrorists. The fewer people who know the better chance you have of being effective. And perhaps people do come forward? There was a lot of activity after the attacks in various places that may have come in part from people (Muslims) giving up information. We have heard of other plans being thwarted in this country earlier in the year - possibly from inside info again. I doubt if the security forces would want to give too much info away regarding their informants.
I think the lack of investigative transparency in all these cases is counter-productive. How many people have they actually had in court over these incidents? Nearly half of all FBI prosecutions for home-grown terrorism involves a great deal of entrapment, with the FBI effectively radicalising useful idiots so they can nick them on the verge of being idiotic. Some of these people have no extant links to any extremist organisation whatsoever. There is nothing to learn there.
Similarly, we’re not sending normal coppers out to arrest these people. We’re usually sending armed response units, and it normally ends in death.
Going back to more conventional areas of FBI concern, there is a bloody good reason for them not wiping out every mafioso in a hail of bullets in every encounter with them, largely that the organised crime network of concern can be damaged much more effectively by arresting them and developing enough intelligence through interrogation to land a really big fish.
Fair enough, I know that you cannot do that with people that are planning on killing themselves into the bargain, but if they do not do that straightaway, you can get them. The loud French action today, which resulted in the death of the Paris mastermind, may assuage the need for short term vengeance, but may yet be a worse long term result.
If the French were smart about it, they’d have done it quietly, nabbed him, interrogated him, anyone with him, and anything on him. If the US were smart, they’d have put Osama bin Laden on trial at the Hague, show them how we do justice. It’d be especially convincing if Bush, pals and Blair featured in the “upcoming trials” section, but at the very least, we should have faith in the form of justice we’ve chosen for ourselves, and the world. Wrongdoing is wrongdoing, no matter who’s doin’ the wrong’in or who the wrongees are.
If the West were collectively smart, we’d have simply provided additional funding to law enforcement agencies so they can do the job they need to do according to the values we are supposed to espouse. If there is a genuine deficiency in existing law which cannot be resolved by this method, then fine, I’m all for little legal changes that address it. Blanket powers that quash an 800 year covenant, celebrated around the world for being one of the foundation stones of democracy? Enabling acts?
Fuck that shit. That shit is what our forebears fought against.
Originally posted by @pap
I think the lack of investigative transparency in all these cases is counter-productive. How many people have they actually had in court over these incidents? Nearly half of all FBI prosecutions for home-grown terrorism involves a great deal of entrapment, with the FBI effectively radicalising useful idiots so they can nick them on the verge of being idiotic. Some of these people have no extant links to any extremist organisation whatsoever. There is nothing to learn there.
Similarly, we’re not sending normal coppers out to arrest these people. We’re usually sending armed response units, and it normally ends in death.
Going back to more conventional areas of FBI concern, there is a bloody good reason for them not wiping out every mafioso in a hail of bullets in every encounter with them, largely that the organised crime network of concern can be damaged much more effectively by arresting them and developing enough intelligence through interrogation to land a really big fish.
Fair enough, I know that you cannot do that with people that are planning on killing themselves into the bargain, but if they do not do that straightaway, you can get them. The loud French action today, which resulted in the death of the Paris mastermind, may assuage the need for short term vengeance, but may yet be a worse long term result.
If the French were smart about it, they’d have done it quietly, nabbed him, interrogated him, anyone with him, and anything on him. If the US were smart, they’d have put Osama bin Laden on trial at the Hague, show them how we do justice. It’d be especially convincing if Bush, pals and Blair featured in the “upcoming trials” section, but at the very least, we should have faith in the form of justice we’ve chosen for ourselves, and the world. Wrongdoing is wrongdoing, no matter who’s doin’ the wrong’in or who the wrongees are.
If the West were collectively smart, we’d have simply provided additional funding to law enforcement agencies so they can do the job they need to do according to the values we are supposed to espouse. If there is a genuine deficiency in existing law which cannot be resolved by this method, then fine, I’m all for little legal changes that address it. Blanket powers that quash an 800 year covenant, celebrated around the world for being one of the foundation stones of democracy? Enabling acts?
Fuck that shit. That shit is what our forebears fought against.
I am all for that but what do you do with someone who shoots at you and has a suiside belt strap to their waist, you sort of have the inclination they are not going to come peacefully, after all Pap they aren’t peaceful people.
To be fair Pap, the French did arrest a whole bunch of people with the ringleader, and are no doubt interrogating them right now. Time will tell whether these people are associates at a lower level, not yet prepared to die for the cause, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
The idea of somehow quietly sneaking up on the mastermind and equally quietly nabbing him is great but unrealistic. We dont yet know how we came to be blown to bits, it could well have been the female nutter with him that pressed the button to end it for both if them.
Did they say fair cop Guv…
Fair enough; I wasn’t aware of the extra arrests and I am glad that they have happened. Hopefully, the French OB are going to be able to derive big bits of the network from that.
As to the second part, it has been proven both globally, and on a domestic scale, that biding your time works just as well, especially if that leads to the generation of more intelligence. I think we’d both agree that the status of these individuals is volatile, but then that’s true of anyone in the frame for a major crime, especially if they are guilty. The intent is still to arrest. Fully appreciate that there is a public safety concern in the light of Friday’s attack, and glad to know that people are in custody, but there is a worrying trend of international justice not being administered in a judicial fashion.
Didn’t they say the reason they went in then was due to intelligence on two more imminent Paris attacks? Biding their time is likely to have resulted in more civilian deaths.
Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint
Didn’t they say the reason they went in then was due to intelligence on two more imminent Paris attacks? Biding their time is likely to have resulted in more civilian deaths.
I’m sure they said that, but then you’ve got to remember that the same authorities failed to prevent the attack, despite suffering simillar a short term away. Various broadsheets are covering the intelligence failures leading up to the event, so I don’t have a great deal of confidence in the same authorities straightening out and flying straight, in a week of panic.
Some of the hypocrisy over on the other place is astounding. I can’t really weigh in with the “that’s too upsetting” thing, because I’ve posted plenty of stuff there over the years that would probably fit that definition. However, given the amount of times people have expressed (almost certainly) feigned outrage when people have put forward images like that in advance of a non-official explanation, it’s interesting that they defend it now.
Mind you, all those principled people had no fucking problem putting images of dead people up if they were losing an argument with me, and needed to remind everyone what I fucking contemptuous nutbar I was. Some of those boys are complete fucking pricks.
I think a certain individual has supported the publishing of that picture just to use it as another way to get to me. I think I made it clear that it was just my opinion that it shouldnt appear on a football internet forum, and certainly I think the timing is very poor, the dead arent even in the ground yet, but everyone is entiled to an opinion, or not! There are a few dudes who work almost as a team and use similar tactics to derail arguements and debates. I need to be careful what I say because I will be accused of “squinnying” again lol. I only just found out what that meant by the way, do people really use that word? Anyway, moving on. You dont have to dig too deep to find what is going on with some of the posters. The more they kick off and try and find tangents the more you can get an impression of what is really going on in their heads. To be fair though, there are one or two who just come right out with it!
Loved Andrew Neill’s rant by the way. Do you think that will earn him a fatwah?
Andrew Neill has always been my favourite on the commentator scene concerning politics, sharp, funny and very very unforgiving when he decides, I wonder what the metropolitan elite think of that belter, the one sitting opposite him most weeks, the hypocrite who sent her kids to public school.