A bit naughty to use the official email address to send out election material, surely? I’d be reluctant to unsubscribe because, for example, I was sent an email the other day about the upcoming ‘leadership debates’. I’d want to be kept in the loop and see the electioneering for what it is.
So, split or no splt forthcoming?
this seems the best approach as I want to know what’s happening on both sides. Just wondered if they only sent it to the 25 quiders.
Actually, I think that’s legit. The Labour Party is sending campaign material on behalf of both candidates. Got one from Jeremy Corbyn’s campaign today and signed up to volunteer.
EDIT
Don’t know if the email is legit - but the practice of the Labour Party sending out those notes on behalf of the candidates is.
One thing I don’t think we’ve considered so far are the leadership debates we’re going to see. I think it’ll prove to be a fascinating contest. The practiced spin of Smith vs the relatively unspun charm of Corbyn. Someone with form already for going on the attack, going up against someone who says he doesn’t do personal abuse, ever, and has been good to his word so far.
This is the sort of thing that could be perceived completely differently depending on how it’s consumed, much like the famed Nixon and Kennedy debates, where radio audiences thought Nixon won while TV audiences, with that much more to go on, thought Kennedy the victor.
I am certain that like Cameron, Smith is going to be endlessly broadcastable in soundbite form. I’ve watched him in a few debates now. He’s a slick, if superficial operator. Most that see the whole debate would probably go Corbyn.
That’s an excellent article. Whatever you might think of Corbyn himself, the basic point about progressive and conservative politics is very well put and (from my point of view at least) impossible to disagree with.
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Interestingly, before Furball did one (well two, or at least one and a half), he was advocating that what Labour needed to get elected were some really big ideas.
He stressed that those things could capture imaginations and win elections over the Tories apparent hold on the fiscal high ground.
That view seems to chime with the article in The Guardian.
Speaking to a good mate of mine last night who works for a union and he seems to think a split is very much on the cards, Watson is also biding his time.
He also says if a split does happen it will be an awful lot bloodier than the 80’s one.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Speaking to a good mate of mine last night who works for a union and he seems to think a split is very much on the cards, Watson is also biding his time. He also says if a split does happen it will be an awful lot bloodier than the 80’s one.
Does he think there will be a split whatever the result or only if Corbyn wins? The bullshit in the press makes it hard to determine as they’ve all said no split. Also which way does your mate vote? If he told you.
cut the top half off the picture and he’s a popular man.
Corbyn is his man, if Corbyn wins a definite attempt at a split but where would the split go and where would they get their money from? The unions and local level support is in the main Corbynites, there has also been talk of a new party coming from this split and with some more centre ground tories and liberals forming. Could it happen? Yes, will it? Hmmm. If Smith wins it there still could be a fracture but not as big and where would the hard left go? They may have the unions but no party for prominence. Difficult days.
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I’m not disagreeing with you here, pap, but ‘electable’ and ‘appealing to the membership of the Labour Party’ are by no means one and the same thing. The simple fact is that the vast majority of people couldn’t give a flying one about stuff like this. Once the race is run they’ll know who’s leading the Labour Party; they won’t have any interest in the process of who gets that gig. Do you think masses of people are eagerly following the court case about nominations and who does and doesn’t need them?
I think the article by David Wearing nailed it. There’s an appetite about for something different; people feel let down by politics and politicians, but more importantly they feel (quite rightly) let down by nigh on forty years of the same old politics and economics. Neoliberal, devil-take-the-hindmost policies - and the numbers of the hindmost have done nothing but rise. Someone with a vision that opposes what’s been in place for all that time, and - cruciallly - offers an alternative that people can believe in, could gain a massive groundswell of pubic support.
Is Jeremy Corbyn that person though? This is where I do wonder. Properly articulated, many of the policies that Corbyn and McDonnell espouse could strike a chord with a fuck of a lot of people - but will those two strike that chord with people who aren’t politically engaged? Can they take that message to an audience beyond their own loyal support? This is what bothers me. You see enthusiasm for Corbyn everywhere you look - but the places you’re looking are exactly those places where you’re certain to find that enthusiasm. Elsewhere - who knows?
In many ways, of course, it’s a case of faut de mieux - nobody else is going to articulate those policies, so it’ll have to be Corbyn and McDonnell. I hope that it works.
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Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Originally posted by @Saint-or-sinner
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Speaking to a good mate of mine last night who works for a union and he seems to think a split is very much on the cards, Watson is also biding his time. He also says if a split does happen it will be an awful lot bloodier than the 80’s one.
Does he think there will be a split whatever the result or only if Corbyn wins? The bullshit in the press makes it hard to determine as they’ve all said no split. Also which way does your mate vote? If he told you.
Corbyn is his man, if Corbyn wins a definite attempt at a split but where would the split go and where would they get their money from? The unions and local level support is in the main Corbynites, there has also been talk of a new party coming from this split and with some more centre grounds tories and liberals forming. Could it happen? Yes, will it? Hmmm. If Smith wins it there still could be a fracture but not as big and where would the hard left go? They may have the unions but no party for prominence. Difficult days.
all sounds reasonable, but the worry could be if enough split and have done a deal with a few prominent tories. Could end up with a massively financially backed new party, having a lot of seats(until the next election). Have you seen how much Tom Watson has had off Max Mosely and he’s a nobody in financial terms. I wonder if this has been building for a long time and now is just the excuse to set it in motion.
Imagine a party with the worst of Labour, Tory,Lib and ukip all together sponsored by big multinational media companies(and of course arms dealers).
They’d win hands down because the referendum proved the public believe anything if the media say it enough(£350m a week for the NHS).
Will history remember us as the unenlightened?
This is the millionaire donor who has taken the Labour Party to court today in his attempt to stop Jeremy Corbyn being on the ballot paper in the leadership election. And why. The man is an absolute arsehole of the first order, even the dear old Daily Mail have the measure of him. These are extremely dangerous times for democracy in this country, nobody should underestimate the extremes to which the establishment will go to in order to maintain the status quo. The relentless lies and misrepresentation of anything Jeremy Corbyn says or does is reaching a crescendo. Simply put, the established political order and the people and organizations they represent will not allow his policy arguments to be heard by the wider general public, because they know, and are terrified by the fact that if they are, they would be seen as eminently sensible and reasonable, and would gain public support. Foster is using his vast wealth to go to law and overturn the democratic choice of hundreds of thousands of people. Plus of course he has Mark Regev whispering in his ear.
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In my view, people will view the shambles that is the leadership election, compare that to how the Tories conducted theirs and think ifLabour can’t even manage this properly, then how are they going to run the country. I think the consequences of this will continue for a long time.
Assuming Corbyn does win an election on a hard left wing mandate,what is the composition of the Labour peers? I assume that they are stuffed full of blairites. That could cause him further problems down the line.
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Originally posted by @Fowllyd
I’m not disagreeing with you here, pap, but ‘electable’ and ‘appealing to the membership of the Labour Party’ are by no means one and the same thing. The simple fact is that the vast majority of people couldn’t give a flying one about stuff like this. Once the race is run they’ll know who’s leading the Labour Party; they won’t have any interest in the process of who gets that gig. Do you think masses of people are eagerly following the court case about nominations and who does and doesn’t need them?
I’ve a couple of things to pull you up on here. First, the whole reason I predicted those images doing the rounds is because I knew it would be an easy visual shorthand to capitalise on. People may not understand the ins and outs of the Labour Party, but they are capable of looking at two crowds and working out which is bigger.
Second, I wouldn’t be comfy talking about “the vast majority” of people, certainly not with the numbers behind him. It’s not just the half a million direct members. There are three million affilated union members, and just this week, Disabled People Against Cuts threw their weight behind Corbyn. There are six million registered disabled people in this country.
Are people as geeky as me on the subject? In general, no - but they don’t need to be.
I think the article by David Wearing nailed it. There’s an appetite about for something different; people feel let down by politics and politicians, but more importantly they feel (quite rightly) let down by nigh on forty years of the same old politics and economics. Neoliberal, devil-take-the-hindmost policies - and the numbers of the hindmost have done nothing but rise. Someone with a vision that opposes what’s been in place for all that time, and - cruciallly - offers an alternative that people can believe in, could gain a massive groundswell of pubic support.
Is Jeremy Corbyn that person though? This is where I do wonder. Properly articulated, many of the policies that Corbyn and McDonnell espouse could strike a chord with a fuck of a lot of people - but will those two strike that chord with people who aren’t politically engaged? Can they take that message to an audience beyond their own loyal support? This is what bothers me. You see enthusiasm for Corbyn everywhere you look - but the places you’re looking are exactly those places where you’re certain to find that enthusiasm. Elsewhere - who knows?
In many ways, of course, it’s a case of faut de mieux - nobody else is going to articulate those policies, so it’ll have to be Corbyn and McDonnell. I hope that it works.
It’s long past the point where the unelectable mantra, and that’s really what it is, is a case of thou doth protest too much. Not you, personally - but those pushing the message in general.
LSE have proven that the press have wilfully distorted his message. Just 11% of his words were accurately reported, and in context. His own party, having failed with their policy platform twice on the bounce, inexplicably say they want him out so they can get back in the business of winning elections. The Conservatives don’t want him around either. He should be an ongoing source of political bounty for them. They should want him around forever, yet Cameron called for him to go.
We don’t normally spend the five years before a general election tagging politicians as unelectable. We simply wait to see how they perform at a general election, with losers having the decency to step down afterward.
It seems as if the established political forces are doing everything they can to prevent Corbyn from reaching that poll as leader of the Labour Party. It’s not just his party either. The Tories and media are weighing in too.
Why don’t they just wait until 2020, watch him fail as they’ve predicted, then definitively cry off socialist values as something people were never interested in, with the full justification of a GE behind it?
A cynic might compare the mantra with the steps taken to make that self-fulfilling, and suggest that his critics are actually shit-scared of him getting elected.
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If the party splits and a new party is formed, they would need a massive injection of cash from someone who has a large personal fortune gathered through nefarious means, an ego you could photograph and a Blairite agenda.
Tony Blair might be someone to approach.
Senior moderate MPs have privately expressed disillusionment with Mr Smith’s early performances in the leadership race. They point to his faltering responses to questions about his past role as a lobbyist for Pfizer, the pharmaceutical giant, and his “bizarre” offer to make Mr Corbyn president of the party.
“I suppose we’ve got to take a deep breath, hold our nose and back him,” one said. “But from what I’ve seen so far the idea that Owen can beat Jeremy seems fanciful. It’s a mess.”
Another added: “We’ve not exactly got Rocky in the ring.”
One Labour MP who backed Mr Smith over Angela Eagle in the contest to take on Mr Corbyn said that he now put his chances of success at “less than 1 per cent”.
“I’m disappointed. I expected when he won he would set out a distinct policy platform straightaway but I’ve heard little of substance so far.”
Being a keen pigeon fancier, myself, I’ve warmed to Jezza since reading this:
On 21 May 2004, Mr Corbyn raised an early day motion entitled “pigeon bombs”, proposing that the House register being “appalled but barely surprised” that MI5 reportedly proposed to load pigeons with explosives as a weapon. The motion continued: “The House… believes that humans represent the most obscene, perverted, cruel, uncivilised and lethal species ever to inhabit the planet and looks forward to the day when the inevitable asteroid slams into the earth and wipes them out thus giving nature the opportunity to start again.”