:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
1181

Fowllyd is correct when he says the Labour Party isn’t solely divided into Corbynistas and Blairites.

Take my eldest son, for instance.

In 2003, aged 15, he organised his classmates to walk out of their school and march through our local town protesting against the war in Iraq. He has protested and argued against that war, and against many other Blair – not to mention, Cameron! – policies, ever since. His political leanings have always been very much left of centre, and as a member of the Labour Party he was only too pleased to vote for Corbyn last September.

In recent months, however, my son has become disillusioned with Corbyn’s leadership for a variety of reasons, not the least being what he sees as Corbyn’s lack-lustre performance in the Referendum debate. (My son was very keen to Remain). Consequently, he won’t be voting for Corbyn in the upcoming leadership election (though he won’t be voting for Smith either).

So, no longer a Corbynista, but hardly a bloody Blairite! he would say.

1182

Who’s he voting for then?

1183

Originally posted by @Fatso

Who’s he voting for then?

No one, I suppose.

Bloody kids, eh? :lou_eyes_to_sky:

1184

As I said earlier, Corbyn delivered the Remain vote for Labour. I don’t get the double standard with Sturgeon being the sole and proud bearer of the EU flag when he delivered just a percentage point less.

Worst case projections put 44% of Labour voters in the Leave camp.

1185

This is what’s wrong with the youth of today. They just don’t give a shit.

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1186

I’ve got two kids, both Labour Party members. The eldest, 20, has been sat on the fence this whole time. They’ve already had a shitload of upheaval over Corbyn within their movement. I think the chair of KCL Labour defected to the Lib Dems back when Corbyn was elected. They’re still mates like, although her newly minted Lib Dem wasn’t impressed with my “they haven’t even got enough members to start a Parliamentary XI”.

The youngest one has only been a member since February, and thus misses the cutoff point, and won’t be able to vote, although if she was able to, she’d vote Corbyn.

I get where the eldest is coming from. She’s already seen all of this upheaval in her own place, doesn’t know which way things are going to come down, and has already spent time with a lot of political types with far more clout than I that’ll be telling her different stuff. She’s hung about with Polly Toynbee, met JC and is generally far more into Party business than I am.

I can understand youngsters being upset with the EU result, but blaming it on Labour and/or Corbyn is something of a stretch. He confined himself to telling the truth during the campaign. The rest of the Remainers exaggerated, lied, blackmailed or scared the British public into their way of seeing things. While Corbyn was campaigning in the run up to the election, a good part of his PLP were knee-deep in plotting activities, and yet they’ve got the audacity to try to blame him?

If Corbyn survives this and wins, then I’d expect some radical changes, and for activists, a genuine chance to be part of some actual change. If, as they say, the point of politics is to change things, I’ve never known a more exciting time to be involved.

1187

The pap family always vote left wing when they are young, but as they get older, they turn v.fascist srs. You can’t fight genetics.

3 Likes
1188

I was more right wing when I was younger.

Intiniki will confirm.

1189

Im not sure that it was the quality of what JC said during the brexit debate, more the lack of quantity. He was pretty anonymous throughout. I did wonder if that was a political move to try and let the tory party tear themselves apart in the spotlight. Might have backfired a bit.

1190

You were more right wing on the 23rd June. :smile:

1191

Originally posted by @CB-Saint

Im not sure that it was the quality of what JC said during the brexit debate, more the lack of quantity. He was pretty anonymous throughout. I did wonder if that was a political move to try and let the tory party tear themselves apart in the spotlight. Might have backfired a bit.

I just don’t think that’s true. Neither did Angela at the time.

If Corbyn is replaced, it would be disingenuous to blame this on his performance in the EU referendum. Ahead of the vote, Corbyn appeared on national television for a one-on-one interview, after having made 123 public appearances, including 60 in 22 days, which took place all over the country, and often in areas with strong Labour support. Eagle praised him at the time for, “pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired”.

1192

Corbyn drawing inspiration from 1942 report for policies - maybe a little outdated perhaps?

1193

No, no, no. That can’t be right as you see in Pap world, even if you were totally against the war, marched on the streets of London, have called for years for Blair to be held account in The Hague but don’t want Corbyn to lead the party into a GE you are a clearly a right wing Blarite who is a traitor to the cause.

In Pap world there is only one leader Corbyn and he cannot fathom that not all of those left of centre believe him the messiah and capable of defeating May. By even thinking this you are a right wing traitor wholly in support of “the rebels” even if you repeat the fact that no, you don’t support the rebels.

Pap will return with his usual ramble about red lines etc missing, yet again, the simple fact that it’s not the policies, it’s the man/team trying to get them across that’s the problem.

1194

Originally posted by @Flahute

No, no, no. That can’t be right as you see in Pap world, even if you were totally against the war, marched on the streets of London, have called for years for Blair to be held account in The Hague but don’t want Corbyn to lead the party into a GE you are a clearly a right wing Blarite who is a traitor to the cause.

I haven’t said that. I’ve simply asked what you’re prepared to let slide, and what sort of people you’re prepared to allow to run the country. I didn’t get any satisfactory answers on that, so one would assume that you’re okay with this. I’m not.

It doesn’t offend me that you’re able to get past this. I just personally can’t.

In Pap world there is only one leader Corbyn and he cannot fathom that not all of those left of centre believe him the messiah and capable of defeating May. By even thinking this you are a right wing traitor wholly in support of “the rebels” even if you repeat the fact that no, you don’t support the rebels.

Not just in Pap world. Evidently in PLP world, too. It took almost a year to find the opportunity to even attempt to depose him properly. It was seventeen days from coup to finding someone they believed could actually challenge, and we’re now left with one candidate that no-one has heard of.

The leadership contest of last year saw loads of names being mentioned by our posters as better leaders than Corbyn. Alan Johnson was mentioned, if you can believe that. Where are they? Why is Owen Smith, pretending to be something he isn’t, the best they’ve been able to put forward?

Pap will return with his usual ramble about red lines etc missing, yet again, the simple fact that it’s not the policies, it’s the man/team trying to get them across that’s the problem.

I disagree with you on the man part. I even disagree on his immediate team.

There is definitely something to be said for the dysfunction of the PLP in general. We would both agree that it is largely driven by factional interests, parties within a party like Progress or Momentum. This fight was always coming. If Corbyn wins, he’ll be in a position to construct a stronger, wider team than the one he has in the PLP at present.

I want to see these ideas given a go. Whatever Smith might say, he’s not the man to front them, and I believe that’ll be reflected in the election result. I would not be surprised if Corbyn secures an even bigger mandate than the 59.5% he achieved last year, with a larger electorate.

If that happens, the PLP will have been rejected, again, by the same people that gave them their seats.

1195

It depends upon the “reach” of those public appearances - talking at the town hall would reach a few thousand tops, TV interviews many hundred times that number.

The fact that there is a feeling of anonymity would suggest the did the former not the later. Whilst he is engaging with the grass roots which his forte, his job is to engage with the masses which, unfortunately for labour, isnt.

1196

Again, two thirds of Labour voters voted to Remain.

On what basis is that a failure, when the SNP’s Remain rate is considered a success?

Corbyn, quite correctly, refused to share a platform with the likes of Cameron. Didn’t tell any fibs, delivered the majority of his voters to Remain.

1197

A partisan view, obviously:-

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1198

I still don’t think that Corbyn is the right leader to win the next general election but pap you are completely right in that the people running against him are far worse and even less likely to win the next election.

I still think we need someone far more able to win the middle of the road votes to get Labour as the next government.

Because as much as they bitch and moan about austerity meassures they still wont vote Corbyn and will cop out when it comes to election time.

1199

Originally posted by @pap

A partisan view, obviously:-

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And somehow has managed to lose ground on the Conservatives…

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