:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
1001

Enjoyed the discussion here.

As usual I am cursed by seeing both sides of the argument.

I’ve always seen Corbyn as a vehicle to drag the party to the left before an electable face, as yet unknown, can take over. This, set against a backdrop of multiple Tory governments creating a growing desire for a different sort of representation, was my 10 year+ plan.

I buy-in to people’s scepticism about Corbyn’s unelectability amongst middle England. Received wisdom says that with the media narrative we have it will be impossible to get a left of centre message out without it being dressed in the clothes of the raving communist.

And yet. And yet.

Received wisdom says that a ‘communist’ would never be elected leader of the Labour Party. Received wisdom says that attracting 600k members to join a political party in 2016 is never going to happen. Received wisdom says that the youth, en mass, are disengaged from politics and won’t get off their backsides and act.

Corbyn’s Labour journey has challenged these truths.

So I recognise what the past has taught us, and I still lean towards the ‘Corbyn will not convince middle England’ point of view, but these last few months and years have taught us that history tells us what has happened, but not always what will happen.

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1002

My issue with “Democracy in the West” has always been that MP’s serve their own interests first (Gravy Train, Expenses, Company Directorships etc) and they make their decisions based on keeping their jobs, not what the Country needs (in the main)

What the Country needs at this time is an Opposition, not a bunch of suits saying the same as the people in Power.

Much as I think Jezza is a shuffling disaster, (his core beliefs being based on failed (in Russia & China) Socilaist Dogma) but at least he is trying to be anti-establishment (which again is why I believe so many voted for Brexit)

I don’t see this as the PLP or whatever trying to reassert themselves, I see it as being self serving. There are 4 more years of Tory Party rule and so why the Godawful rush and mess now? UK needs Opposition and yet Labour are prepared to lose that status AND keep changing their rules AND keep harping on about nobody having voted for May in an election?

At the moment Labour deserve to be cast to the darkest realms of Student Union Politics. It is a joke they are appearing Hypocritical.

They have turned UK into a Tory Dictatorship and if the Left cannot Oppose then that (worryingly) leaves the window open for the Far Right to grow.

What a fucking mess

1003

Can someone (probably pap) comment on the moritorium on members eligibility for voting?

Is it legal?

Sounds like promises made about voting rights have been reneged upon.

1004

I think you nail a lot of it there, bletch. None of this really should work. You’ve followed this story as long as I have, and you know that he has had some level of criticism from the day he was nominated. We now know that there has been a concerted effort to remove him, ready to go at the earliest and best opportunity. We know from the last couple of weeks that if one doesn’t come around, they’ll create one.

When you look at the unprecedented trials the Labour Party has gone through, my particular favourite being the part where they tried to make out that Labour supporters were giant racists, you’d be forgiven for thinking “how the fuck is he still here?”.

Received wisdom would have had him out of the door, long ago. The PM and Conservatives in general should be thrilled to have Corbyn at the helm of the Labour Party. Received wisdom would say “just let the fucker go to the GE, get obliterated, and we’ll have a nice cup of tea afterwards”. Cameron was imploring him to leave last week. For the national interest.

I’m not buying it. My suspicion is that Corbyn is more dangerous to the established interests than any of them are prepared to say. Their actions betray the “unelectable” mantra, as does his electoral performance.

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1005

Gotta love John McDonnell for this.

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1006

Originally posted by @saintbletch

Can someone (probably pap) comment on the moritorium on members eligibility for voting?

Don’t know the official reason behind the vote, but I’m sure the intent is to keep Corbyn supporters from voting without paying. The coup is allegedly being funded by Lord Sainsbury.

Is it legal?

A lot of people are saying no, based on the sign up blurb, which seems fairly unambiguous.

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Sounds like promises made about voting rights have been reneged upon.

Aye. It has been a fucking mess.

Fortunately, new media is rallying around. Turns out that you can vote as a Unite community member for 50p, so not only will the plan not work, it’ll also funnel more people into institutions hostile to the Progress wing of the party.

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1007

Paul Mason@paulmasonnews

Labour NEC gives 100k existing members no vote but anyone who can find £25 in next 48 hours a vote. M’learned friends will have a field day

1008
1009

And it’s that view, held by many of the Corbynistas, which will ensure another Tory government. His electoral performance hasn’t been tested where it matters, middle England.

All the talk of “new media” is also bolloxs. Those whose votes need to be won won’t be won over by memes on Twitter, it’ll be the good ole fashioned newspapers and TV and it is that, I fear, that will see all the work on the ground by his supporters, who I have no doubt will work their arses off for the cause, undone.

This is a world of spin and soundbites and the tories, annoyingly, are far better at it than Labour and they will simply bang home the message, “split party”.

The activists are excited by this “new era” but that new era only exists within the party membership, not in the country at large and certainly not in middle England.

Win a battle; lose the war.

1010

Originally posted by @Flahute

And it’s that view, held by many of the Corbynistas, which will ensure another Tory government. His electoral performance hasn’t been tested where it matters, middle England.

Rubbish. We’ve had local elections in many of the marginals. Percentage swings to Labour, and that’s with a party the public knows is broken.

I campaigned in a ward on Southampton test. We increased the majority by a _factor _of seven (7x, not 7%).

All the talk of “new media” is also bolloxs. Those whose votes need to be won won’t be won over by memes on Twitter, it’ll be the good ole fashioned newspapers and TV and it is that, I fear, that will see all the work on the ground by his supporters, who I have no doubt will work their arses off for the cause, undone.

You reckon? I’d say we’ve just seen major evidence that good old fashioned media has hit the blocks. By rights, we should have voted to Remain in the EU, Jezza should have been destroyed when his own party created the anti-semitism thing.

We’d have to ignore the events of the last year to make the case for the mainstream media holding the influence it once did.

It’s still out there, and you’re right - Twitter ain’t enough. There’s Facebook, there’s personal follow-up. I’ve managed to get people into politics that were never interested before.

This is a world of spin and soundbites and the tories, annoyingly, are far better at it than Labour and they will simply bang home the message, “split party”.

I think you’re historically bang on. I don’t think you’ve assessed the new space. Tory policy is a piece of piss to dismantle.

The activists are excited by this “new era” but that new era only exists within the party membership, not in the country at large and certainly not in middle England.

A party membership that has ballooned, precisely because Corbyn is in charge. A party membership that votes as well, has friends and family, has influence, has doorstep power.

The vast majority behind Jeremy Corbyn.

The other thing you’ve wildly overestimating is the size of “Middle England”. I’m not even sure it has any applicability anymore, or ever did. In any event, it has gotten a lot smaller in the last six years.

Win a battle; lose the war.

We’ll see.

Interesting account I heard secondhand.

Two teenagers on a bus, one of them is talking about University.

“My dad says I can’t go. It’s too much money and he doesn’t want me to be in debt for the rest of my life”
“If Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, you’ll be able to go”.

Teenagers.

1011

those two teenagers were clearly planted on that bus by Corbyn. He has an elite team of spotty faced youngsters trying to subtly spread his propaganda on public transport.

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1012

I love Scousepirational.

1013

You are seriously counting local elections as evidence of the popularity of Corbyn? Deary me.

I see you also think that the power of the Corbynistas is greater than Middle England, which, despite no evidence to to support such nutty assumptions, you dismiss. As for evidence of it’s existence and size, I give you the last 2 general election results.

Teenagers. I’ve taught in FE/6th Forms for quite a while. 90% of the students wouldn’t know who Corbyn was. The vast majority of the students I deal with are much more interested in single issue politics. Gender, environment etc being top of the list.

As for the media and spin. I am bang on. All they have to do is repeat the mantra “split party”. If you think twitter and facebook can counter that then you’re, at the least, misguided.

I have no doubts at all that Corbyn has given hope to the left and that very many people voted for him because he’s left wing and that in itself is good but he, as an individual, will not beat May and the tory press.

The message is great, even if I do think it’s unattainable as a whole package, but the messenger is shite. That’s my issue.

I want to win the war.

1014

The PLP were happy to lose the local elections. Some of them clearly considered them important, whichis why we had the spectacle of John Mann and the anti-semitism thing. They considered them important, as did the media. Why shouldn’t I?

I’ve asked you to define Middle England before, to no great avail. We ended up getting a description of your activities, as if you’re somehow the personification of the concept. Your subjective view on the matter doesn’t really help us define Middle England.

A better way to look at it is optimares vs populares, the timeless phenomenon that has appeared in every society. We’ve still got elites, and we’ve still got everyone else. I still maintain that there is absolutely no middle class. The best we can realistically achieve is that working class people _feel _middle class, have a bit of stability, security and financial wriggle room.

Corbyn is the only one that will seriously push for policies to achieve that. The Bitterite element of the party has no interest in anything beyond its own survival, and the golden handshakes that await in company boardrooms.

On what planet are they more electable than someone genuinely interested in implementation, hasn’t lied to the public, has shown true leadership in the face of ongoing manufactured chaos?

More to the point, with every bit of bloodletting laying the motives of these bastards bare, do you really want them running the country?

It’s a moot point, I reckon. The ringleaders will face deselection. Many CLPs have postponed meetings to avoid having a vote. They’re done, and even if they weren’t, there is no way they’d continue his policy platform, and no way they’ll get into power.

Seriously review ALL the shit they’ve put the members through. Do they sound like Labour to you?

1015

The media keeps chucking buckets of paint at Corbyn.

The shades they are throwing include anti-semitism, anti-royal, Britain-hating, terrorist-loving, army-dismantling, party-splitting and now brick-throwing.

That is a shitload of PR to overcome and half the population can’t be arsed to educate themselves.

They just rely on Murdoch to advise them and I can’t see him changing course.

Corbyn would need to abandon principles and cosy up to Uncle Rupert.…just like Tony did.

That ended well.

1016

Meanwhile, back in reality.

1017

Which to me, is a bonus, especially if he gets in.

The media has been utterly counterproductive in laying the boot into Corbyn, just as it was when laying the boot into the Leave argument.

He’s still standing after a year of the shit you describe. The Conservative Party leadership contenders self-knifed in a week. That tells me a couple of things. First, they probably haven’t got anything on him they haven’t already used. Election results seem to indicate that no-one is particularly arsed with the slurs they’ve tried so far. Second, the media ain’t as powerful as it used to be, largely through self-harm on this issue.

1018

I think this sums it up quite well. It won’t for Pap as Corbyn and his band of brothers, fighting The Man, can do no wrong.

1019

You should have built up to Jonathan Freedland, not started with him.

Where do you go next? Toynbee on a particularly bad day?

1020

Speaking as someone whose parents are historically floating voters, and who are also middle class (which I think definitely DOES exist), I can say that they would NEVER vote Corbyn, and purely on the basis of his image as defined by the media (chiefly newspapers and BBC) - all because the media portrayed him as a monarchy-hating, war-dead ignoring communist.

I’ve had full-on rows with my dad about the fact that he flat refuses to believe that newspapers and the BBC would do anything other than report the news ‘pretty much’ as is, and for an educated man it’s surprising how trenchantly he believes that the ‘old system’ still works.

THAT’S what Corbyn’s up against, and no amount of Facebook or Twitter chat is going to change that, unfortunately. I’ve said it already but what needs to happen is some sort of national campaign to remind people that you’re supposed to vote for POLICIES OF THE PARTY not personalities of the leaders. It seems to me a relatively recent phenomenon that people are voting for party leaders based on their public image - as recently as Blair maybe? - so the old folk of middle England should really be able to get there heads back in the game on that score… shouldn’t they?

That’s what I don’t understand about the ‘Corbyn is unelectable’ line - if his policies are fair, make sense, stand a good chance of improving the lives of the majority of the country, and could possibly break the stranglehold of an elite on the country (yet to be determined of course in these early stages), then how can he be ‘unelectable’?

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