:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Originally posted by @TedMaul

Sfcsim is an expert on the media

I’ve known him for over thirty years. As far as I know, he hasn’t worked in media or studied it. Nor do I think he knows many of the players within. I can see that you’re trying to facetiously invalidate Sfcsim’s opinion. Personally, I’m fascinated by perceptions of media, particularly because most people that consume it are not experts in it, and as has been reported numerous times on this thread, Sfcsim is merely part of a majority of the general public that agrees Corbyn has been poorly treated.

These are interesting times. The broadcast networks were unable to prevent Britain voting Brexit, despite the main purveyors of doom. I don’t think that they command the authority they once did.

I protested the BBC back in 2014 for their coverage of the Gaza conflict. The organisation itself told few outright lies. Instead, sins of omission were the order of the day, nearly always skewing the coverage to promote the Israeli perspective. Commentators from pro-Israel thinkthanks such as the Henry Jackson Society were being presented as independent voices. There was almost no-one speaking for the Palestinians.

This year, we’ve seen the BBC help to make the news, timing the announcement of its own news to do maximum damage to a political party. We seem to have moved away from justifiable untruths, such as a lack of context when discussing an issue, to persistent attacks on an individual and/or his political base.

The BBC may have the market share, but it has done so much to blacken its own name that it no longer reliably be considered as a broadcaster of record. In truth, it was always thus, but Auntie at least managed the veneer of independence, sometimes even managing to be a crusading investigative force (their 90s documentaries were excellent). Sad to see what it has become.

being fair to Ted, sfcsim simply stating there’s a conspiracy doesn’t make it true. He offered no evidence.

I’ve never noticed the BBC as a particularly pro Israel channel. It is this sort of stuff that leads to Corbyn supporters being accused of anti-Semitism. Is there really evidence that showed the BBC is pro Israel or is it another one of those which is really subtle so most won’t notice but definitely happening?

I’m not saying there is it isn’t a campaign against Corbyn or for Jewish people. I’m just saying that simply stating it doesn’t make it true and that turning on people who disagree with you is exactly the sort of thing that gives Corbyn supporters a bad name.

I do like this site but there are times when if your voice isn’t the right voice then people can start to make life uncomfortable. That’s a shame because its nice to have some variety. You also do the causes you fight for no justice when it becomes like this.

I tread very carefully on this issue. The BBC gets numerous complaints over its Palestinian coverage, many of them upheld.

https://www.palestinecampaign.org/bbc-upholds-complaints-of-pro-israel-bias-and-inaccuracy/
http://eipa.eu.com/2014/03/bbc-upholds-complaint-over-inaccurate-israel-reporting/

We’ve also seen documented examples of BBC reporters deliberately going out of their way to make Corbyn look crap, the Steven Dugher resignation being the one they were caught bang to rights on. I think we can both agree that there has been a wider campaign against Corbyn from the start, culminating in this year’s leadership election. There’s no question about whether people have plotted against him,

There’s also no question that at least on one occasion, the BBC actually guided events to make the news it was eventually going to report. There’s also little question that the coverage of Corbyn on BBC has been biased. It doesn’t take a conspiracy to wangle that. It could just be an order from a boss, with the sure and certain knowledge that if you don’t do it, there’s always someone that will.

The BBC generally moulds itself to the prevailing government of the day. That still happens, but its own authority has been eroded over the years. I think it lost editorial independence during the Blair years (slapped down after David Kelly). It seems almost partisan now. That can’t be healthy. I don’t think it matters whether people are operating to a pre-planned agenda or have independently decided that Corbyn is the worst thing since shit on toast.

Not my intention to be facetious with that last bit. The culture of access can easily create situations where journos visit their political sources and all coming back singing the same song. It could be as simple (and depressing as that). What I do find unforgivable is the lack of challenge to these opinions. I wasn’t being hyperbolic when suggesting it isn’t fit to be a matter of record either. The editorial decisions that organisation has made certain issues very one-sided, the Corbyn situation being a recent example. When an organisation seeks to cloud instead of clarify, is it serving the record?

3 Likes

This gives some balance to the recent nonsense regarding the supposed anti semitism in The Labour Party since Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

Throws some light on the way that treacherous members of the PLP are aligning themselves with their Tory mates to undermine Corbyn at every opportunity as well.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-parliamentary-report-on-antisemitism

1 Like

I have studied Media Studies at the Open University and my wife is a English and head of Media teacher at secondary and does not shut up about how interesting Media is. I do not claim to be an expert, but you do not need to be, to know there are ‘hidden’ agendas at most media based establishments. The Beeb are not excluded from this!

2 Likes

Originally posted by @Nottarf-Krap

This gives some balance to the recent nonsense regarding the supposed anti semitism in The Labour Party since Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

Throws some light on the way that treacherous members of the PLP are aligning themselves with their Tory mates to undermine Corbyn at every opportunity as well.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-parliamentary-report-on-antisemitism

It’s extremely sad that this angle of attack continues to be deployed, and potentially damaging to the Jewish communities that are alleged to be under threat. How many times has this specific kind of attack been tried?

Antisemitism is a concept that is poorly understood by the lay community, and poorly explained by those seeking to educate. Deliberately so. Here is what Eric Pickles thinks it should be.

Check this little snippet from his definition.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to :

Not limited to. It’s open-ended. The definition lists some specific examples as well, some with less problems than others, but all venturing into space where you are not allowed to express opinion.

Corbyn tags on “and all other forms of racism” whenever he’s condemning antisemitism. First question that I always ask when considering whether something is antisemitic is “is it racist?”.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Not sure if that’s necessarily racist given the right context. Pickles is also no stranger to double standards himself.

This is antisemitic, according to his definition.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

And yet, this statement, made by Pickles, is presumably fine.

Nine days previously, Pickles had spoken at a conference on antisemitism in Berlin, where he described the Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) campaign as akin to the Nazi boycott of Jewish goods. “There’s nothing complicated to it,” he told the audience. “It’s the same thing happening 70 years later. It’s the same ideology, it’s the same language, it’s the same threats.”.

BDS was designed from the get-go to be a non-violent form of protest. If I wanted to draw a parallel, I’d be looking for other non-violent movements, not one of the most murderous and most malign regimes in history.

It’s alright for Pickles to compare non-violent campaigners to Nazis, but antisemitic to suggest that Israeli policy may share hallmarks with those of another government. Double standards indeed. Pickles should cope. He looks like a man who knows how to have his cake and eat it.

It’s a disgraceful tactic, as was the banning of municipal bodies from taking part in the boycott. Groups like Jewish Socialist have been invaluable in providing their take on this. Given the fury we’ve seen descend on others perceived to cross the line, you can see why people are reluctant to grasp the nettle.

Pickles should have gone for another cake.

3 Likes

Ken Loach seems to agree with you Sfcsim

I’ve seen Ken speak a couple of times back from my days on the actual far left.

Fuck me, party conference was like the scene under Pilates’ palace in Life of Brian. The likes of Loach were cool, but we had a group of communists (note hypo: actual communists, not borderline) abstain on fucking everything because they had a beef with the conveners, _even _a motion to kick off a wider investigation into establishment child abuse.

Free People of Galilee twats :lou_wink_2:

2 Likes

Originally posted by @pap

Originally posted by @Nottarf-Krap

This gives some balance to the recent nonsense regarding the supposed anti semitism in The Labour Party since Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

Throws some light on the way that treacherous members of the PLP are aligning themselves with their Tory mates to undermine Corbyn at every opportunity as well.

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-parliamentary-report-on-antisemitism

It’s extremely sad that this angle of attack continues to be deployed, and potentially damaging to the Jewish communities that are alleged to be under threat. How many times has this specific kind of attack been tried?

Antisemitism is a concept that is poorly understood by the lay community, and poorly explained by those seeking to educate. Deliberately so. Here is what Eric Pickles thinks it should be.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/a-definition-of-antisemitism

Check this little snippet from his definition.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to :

Not limited to. It’s open-ended. The definition lists some specific examples as well, some with less problems than others, but all venturing into space where you are not allowed to express opinion.

Corbyn tags on “and all other forms of racism” whenever he’s condemning antisemitism. First question that I always ask when considering whether something is antisemitic is “is it racist?”.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Not sure if that’s necessarily racist given the right context. Pickles is also no stranger to double standards himself.

This is antisemitic, according to his definition.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

And yet, this statement, made by Pickles, is presumably fine.

Nine days previously, Pickles had spoken at a conference on antisemitism in Berlin, where he described the Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) campaign as akin to the Nazi boycott of Jewish goods. “There’s nothing complicated to it,” he told the audience. “It’s the same thing happening 70 years later. It’s the same ideology, it’s the same language, it’s the same threats.”.

BDS was designed from the get-go to be a non-violent form of protest. If I wanted to draw a parallel, I’d be looking for other non-violent movements, not one of the most murderous and most malign regimes in history.

It’s alright for Pickles to compare non-violent campaigners to Nazis, but antisemitic to suggest that Israeli policy may share hallmarks with those of another government. Double standards indeed. Pickles should cope. He looks like a man who knows how to have his cake and eat it.

It’s a disgraceful tactic, as was the banning of municipal bodies from taking part in the boycott. Groups like Jewish Socialist have been invaluable in providing their take on this. Given the fury we’ve seen descend on others perceived to cross the line, you can see why people are reluctant to grasp the nettle.

Pickles should have gone for another cake.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/ben-white/shifty-antisemitism-wars

The problem as i see it is that any legitimate criticism of the State of Israel regarding their indefensible treatment of Palestinians is immediately answered by accusations of anti-semitism, thereby closing down the argument. It is a deliberate tactic by the Israel firsters, they know that nobody likes to be tarnished as a racist. It never used to be the case, accusations of anti- semitism used to be the tactic of last resort, now it is the first card out of the pack. Because that is the only argument they have.

The power of the Israeli lobby both here and, especially in the USA cannot be overstated. Successive Prime Ministers here, Labour and Conservative have all been prominent and vocal members of the ‘Friends of Israel’. Just pointing out this fact brings immediate screams of anti-semite. This deliberate blurring of the lines between 'anti-zionism, (legitimate opposition to a political philosophy), and ‘anti-semitism’, (deliberate hatred of a whole people because they happen to be Jewish), is an insidious and intellectually barren tactic. But sadly it is effective. It immediately shuts down any legitimate criticism of Israel’s criminal and inhumane behaviour towards the Palestinian people. Lets face it, if any other nation behaved in the same way as Israel, displacing families, collective punishment, (which is classified as a war crime), indiscriminately slaughtering civilians, (a high proportion of whom are women and children), dropping white phosphorous bombs in civilian areas, etc etc, there would be uproar by the very same people who turn a blind eye to all this. A few mutterings along the lines of ‘please show some restraint’, while at the same time continuing to arm Israel to the teeth with weapons needed to carry on doing it. The hypocrisy and double standards are staggering.

Jeremy Corbyn is one of the very few frontline politicians who has consistently over a long period of time vocally supported Palestinian rights, unafraid to openly criticise Israel for their cruel and barbaric behaviour. This is what all the anti-semitism accusations is really about. He is a threat to the status quo, he is quite prepared to name and shame. The ardent Zionists like Murdoch, Blair, Mandelson etc will do whatever they deem necessary to stop his arguments being heard. They defend the indefensible. The irony is that by their obvious support for the right of Palestinians to be treated as third class people, sub human even( cockroaches) to quote Netanyahu, they are exposed as the true racists in this argument.

4 Likes

It appears than most of these bans are going to be lifted.

Darren Williams

11 hrs ·

On the way home after meetings of the Labour NEC’s Disputes Panel and Organisation Committee. At the former, there was a fairly robust discussion about the mass suspensions carried out during the leadership election. Several of us voiced our deep concerns about the process that had been followed and the heavy penalties awarded for what seemed in many cases, insignificant or even bizarre ‘offences’. There was a general acknowledgement that the process needs to be reviewed and that much of it would be done very differently in the event that (heaven forbid) similar circumstances should recur in the future. In the meantime, it is at least welcome news that everyone involved should have either a lifting of their suspension or a written warning or at least some news of their case by the beginning of next month. This will not, of course, undo the wrong that has, in my view, been done to many innocent party members, who were denied a vote in the leadership election and have been excluded from party meetings. The culture of the party badly needs to change to reflect the kind of open, inclusive and empowering politics advocated by Jeremy Corbyn.

2 Likes

That last sentence will be a problem for those that have already shown their contempt for the membership ever getting a say.

Still a long way to go, but hopefully heading in the right direction

Report now out on the Wallasey/Eagle shennanigans - article here.

Meeting attended by Corbyn in person, apparently, and he’s received thanks from Eagle for doing so and for being supportive. Which is actually rather good to see.

“Untrue rumours were subsequently spread that the building was occupied by many companies and the window was in an unrelated stairwell. This was based on a Companies House search which found that the landlord had a number of companies registered there; in fact the only other occupant is the landlord on the upper floor. Once this incorrect rumour was spread, members repeated it as clear evidence that Angela Eagle was lying. This is categorically untrue.”

Interesting snippet

I’d like to see this report and the evidence they’ve got backing it up.

I see they’ve climbed down on the brick throwing stuff to simply state that it was “highly likely” it was related to the leadership election (as opposed to Corbyn supporters). They’ve nothing backing that up. If the rest of the report is as substantiated, I’d expect it to be as much of a stitch up.

1 Like

Wallasey CLP members looking into crowd-funded legal action.

We’re fuming – she’s claiming she suffered homophobic abuse at a CLP meeting chaired by a woman with a gay daughter and whose CLP secretary has a gay son, both of whom they fully support.

What’s more, she wasn’t even at the bloody meeting – and there were absolutely no complaints about homophobic comments in her absence. She was at a meeting later that she described as ‘bullying and intimidating, but I was at that meeting and everybody was completely civil throughout.

As for that brick allegation, there’s no proof there even was a brick, let alone that it was thrown by a Labour member and nobody has been arrested, so the NEC’s opinion that it was targeting her office is just that, an opinion.

1 Like

Originally posted by @pap

Wouldn’t the glass be on the inside if someone had thrown a brick from outside?

:lou_sunglasses:

I had considered that but decided that you’d have to be pretty thick to clear it up by knocking the remainder into the building rather than out.

2 Likes

Ol’ New Labour may well have over-reached this week. Corbyn put together a motion demanding a UN investigation into the conflict in Yemen, considering the actions of all sides, with a view to finding resolution. There was no suggestion of suspending arms sales. It was just about getting the international authority to investigate an ongoing conflict, something well within the UN’s remit.

It was easy to vote yes for. Even a Conservative MP voted in favour of the motion, even though no-one was expecting him to. The Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru, SNP and others got high percentages of their MPs to support the motion.

Labour MPs were under a three line whip to support the motion. While 129 voted in favour, including many MPs people would consider on ther right, 104 abstained. The Labour party faithful is still getting their heads around it.

Like any vote, some had genuine reasons not to abstain. Sickness is one. Pairing, a practice in which government and opposition MPs mutually agree not to vote, therefore not affecting the result, accounts for some more of those. That should be taken on board when estimating the scale of the rebellion. Even so, there are around seventy MPs that appear to have abstained to hurt Corbyn’s leadership on an issue which unresolved, will continue to produce daily death tolls and foster instability, using munitions supplied by the British arms industry. British made cluster bombs have been employed on civilian populations. British expertise is supplied to help aim the bombs. We’re deeply complicit on many levels.

Like a lot of New Labour ploys, this one has backfired. The motion was defeated by 90 votes, putting the abstainers in the uncomfortable position in which their factional power play has actually been decisive. Perhaps that’s what they wanted. Critics have already used the #labstain hashtag on Twitter to describe them.

May has a majority of twelve. Yemen is a shocking enough thing to play factional games on, but let’s be honest, it’s going to be at the back of most people’s minds. Are the #labstain boys and girls going to do this on every bill? Are they going to facilitate Tory policy, nixing my prediction that May will suffer a lot of defeats? Disgusting behaviour. I don’t think they’ll get away with it.

1 Like

Arrived back in Liverpool to discover I’m back in the Labour party fold. I’m still in the dark as to why I was suspended. The Labour NEC has officially warned me. I don’t think I’ll be accepting that. I think a subject access request may be the next step.

Either way, whatever my crime was, it wasn’t enough to stop me from remaining a member of the Party. Just enough to disenfranchise me and nick my vote.

5 Likes