That’s actually just bullshit, GA. no one is bigger than the club. Not even Le Tiss. People come and go, same for every club in the world bar the elite and no one in their right mind would suggest we are one of the elite. We steal players from smaller clubs, from places like Feyenord. Most of those mid ranking European teams operate the same way as we do…except we take their players. We have a system that seems to work whoever the personnel are, and as long as that continues, I’ll be happy.
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As we seem to be moving from the concrete to the abstract (and indeed to the philosophical) - apologies in advance for lack of brevity…
On the subject of “feeder club” status. As several have said, there are only three clubs who don’t have that status one way or another - Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich. And i’m not entirely certian about the third of those. Purely domestically, I reckon it’s safe to say that right now there are maybe two or three clubs whose status is non-feeder - put another way, clubs whose valued players (or manager, come to that) woudn’t leave for any other English club. Those clubs are Manchester United, Chelsea and Manchester City. Perhaps. Maybe it’s only two, or even only one. But I can’t think of a player who’s left any of those for another Premier League club in the last few years unless their club was quite happy for them to go (Mata being an example of this).
So how do all the others get by? As we are one of those others, it’s a pretty important question. Actually, it’s a crucial one. Do you set your club up to supply talent to other, bigger clubs? Do you sign older players (often on free transfers) who are less likely to be poached by other clubs? Do you sign the best players you possibly can, and hope that they’ll stick around? Or do you regard turnover as something that’s going to happen whether you like it or not, and do your utmost to mitigate its effects?
One could argue that Newcatle United have, for the past few years, taken the first course. They have had a policy of signing no players above a cerain age, purely on the basis of resale value. It’s got them a long way (although it’s not the only reason for their current situation it’s unquestionably been a major factor).
Bolton under Sam Allardyce took the second course (this was in the days before the money got really, really big, but I think it’s a valid example). This can work OK for some time, but there’s no future in it - you need to be able to keep signing aging players on high salaries who’ll perform for you, or the whole thing falls apart.
Many clubs take the third route. You sign players, you develop players. You hope they’ll come good and, if they do, you hope you’ll be able to keep hold ot them. You probably won’t though, so you’ll need to be able to cope when your good players go elsewhere. What, for example, would Spurs do should Kane, Alli and Dier all move to bigger clubs this summer? Or even next summer? What willl Leicester do if Vardy moves to Arsenal?
Which brings me nicely to the last option, which is pretty much what we do. When we sign or develop players, we don’t want them to leave, but we know that some of them will. So we do our best to have plans in place for when this happens. Thus far, it seems to be working pretty well. We’ve lost a good few players and a manager over the past few summers (and the manager count may be about to double), and yet we’ve still moved forward. This is no accident.
To my mind, suggestions that we’re simply accepting feeder club status, or indeed setting out to be a feeder club, are plain wrong. If you want to see a club who’ve done that (and very much the latter rather than the former) then look at Newcastle. We’re nothing like that.
Could we do things differently? Of course we could. Could we keep all our players (and manager) and remain stable and sustainable? That I would doubt.
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Only two clubs, Bayern are a feeder club to the big two.
I was out drinking for most of yesterday, so only had access to the unfolding information via the medium of drunken mate reading things out from a phone.
Seems that personal terms have been agreed and that we’re just waiting for an agreement from the clubs, at least according to reports from his agent.
One of my mates remarked that if this was a player, the footballing authorities would be all over the case for tapping up. I find it quite extraordinary that Everton have been able to pursue the transfer in this way.
Completely agree. In terms of how to do your business in a discrete and professional way, this rivals Spuds in terms of how not to do that. I still think I have woekn up in a parrallel universe but it does really seem to be happening. Really thought Ron was better than this 
Originally posted by The Flyd Cat
Some waffly, word-bore stuff
Great post Flyd, and a really good analysis.
But I also have to agree with some of the points that Gay is making.
I guess that the reason we’re all pretty chilled about the Toffee Ron situation is that we’re becoming used to seeing our famed system pull another manager from the Saints-manager-cookie-cutter, stick him in the oven and watch him thrive. The only difference, this time, is that we won’t be using gingerbread dough.
I suspect we will continue to do that, and continue to thrive, but to not acknowledge the risk is wrong IMO.
There are human interactions, emotions and sometimes just that drop of special sauce that all underpin a managerial tenure. These are the things that systems can’t control. They are totally in the domain of what it is to be a human.
Again, you can mitigate these things by selecting managers that have a track record and personality that suggest they won’t go postal on the squad if we lose 7-0.
But mitigation isn’t elimination.
There’s this club called Manchester Utd who used to be quite awesome. They had a great manager, a system, lots of cash and when the previous manager retired, he even stayed around - together with a couple of lieutenants to make sure that he could help bed-in the new manager.
What could go wrong?
I don’t mean to patronise (well maybe a little), and I recognise that Moyes couldn’t be described as a direct philosophical and tactical copy of Fergusson, and I acknowledge that Utd’s selection procedure isn’t as systematic as ours, but I hope the point is still there.
When you change personnel, even the best clubs expose themselves to risk.
Was Fergusson bigger than the club? Of course not. I’d suggest that isn’t even the correct question.
Perhaps asking “is the club less now?” is a better place to start.
It would be churlish of me to not acknowledge how our system, from youth to first-team, mitigates a great deal of the risk of change. But systems like ours, and especially systems that have multiple human inputs and outputs, are only as strong as their weakest link.
If Dick Imery turns up to meet the selection committee and everyone is smitten, but then meets Kat and makes some lost-in-translation gaff by calling her Fat instead of Kat, then he’s out on his ear - system or not.
And if that process continues all the way down our long-list until we get to Branfoot, Ian then we’re all in the shit.
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I’m not sure the Manchester United example works with just Ferguson alone, David Gill did the offs to work for FIFA the same year Ferguson departed. I take your point about how crucial any appointment can be, particularly the manager.
My mate Lee reckons they interviewed Koeman twice. He was the first person they interviewed and the last. They really liked him from the start, but did the due diligence in interviewing other candidates before finally settling on their man.
Still a risk, even when you do all that. United were replacing key individuals at board and club level. We don’t have as much to do.
Uhm…will have to differ - its an abstract concept, but one could argue that Le Tiss WAS bigger than the club because of what the club now is compared to what it would have been had we been relegated in the early 90s - without SMS, stuck in a crumbling Dell without all the prem millions over the years… where would it be and what type of club would we be? A Blackpool? Brighton… ?
Football is so heavily associated with romanticism and the BS rheteoric such a ‘history’ and ‘size’ - when all that matters is the today, the rest is for old fans to get nostalgic about and for those obsessed with such things to try and bait oposing fans with.
IMHO, the phrase that no one is bigger than the club is just an invention to make fans feel better when important players leave… we feel bitter and fucked off, but it sooths us thinking there will be another possibly better person along soon.
Yes the club has taken a view that it should create a single structure and operating model with no one piece irreplaceable - a safeguard against the inevitable departures of talent for bigger money. BUT to think that we will always replace like or like or better is naive - it wont always happen. Our problem is not the single departure, but the seemingly annual 3-4 - always key personnel… eventually this will fuck us over, as we only need to have 1 year where the replacemnets dont gell or settle and we will slip…
Of course the flip side can also happen - we could get a perfect storm of new comers and do a Leicester… who knows, but odds are against it.
The final reason for this approach being a bit shit from a fans perspective is the ‘if only’ - Be really honest. as much as we are told we must hate Poch for his desertion, Cortese for being a cunt and wanting an autocratic regime… is anyone still in any doubt that had that combination still been here and with backing we might have had from ML had he not sadly passed away, we might be doing something a bit special right now?
The current approach is perfectly rational, reasonable and sound… if everyone else is taking the same approach. They are not and the danger is we get left behind. There is just the same fun in seeing our progress dented each summer… and having Ralph philosophically exchange with us that its all OK…
I’m looking forward to seeing the next set of Everton accounts and learning how they have funded this summer purely from their commercial income.
Everyone else at the table thinks it a big risk for Ron’s career. I’m not sure I see that. Even if he gets sacked before Christmas, he’ll get a decent payout and few questions will be asked of failure at a new money club, especially after the seasons he has just delivered for Saints.
At worst, it may delay the ascension of Koeman to Barcelona, but even that is doubtful. He remains a legend at the Nou Camp, their favourite ever foreigner after the late great Cruyff. His image is all over the place, and the boots he used to fire Barca to the European Cup are a museum piece.
A big earner for him which doesn’t carry too many long term downsides. Shit for us in the short-term just on the uncertainty front.
One plus side is that Koeman brought a lot of good players with him. I can’t see them departing for Everton, but you never know. Didn’t see Ron making the move either.
I’m getting over it. Fuck, I’m getting used to it.
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Which becomes easier each year… and that is part of the issue. We become conditioned into accepting this as the norm… what happens when we get shite in as replacements though…
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Which becomes easier each year… and that is part of the issue. We become conditioned into accepting this as the norm… what happens when we get shite in as replacements though.…
We’ll have bad times, dude.
I commend you for your fine contributions to this thread. It is nice to have a bit of a meltdown, but I don’t think it is worth getting wound up about stuff that might happen.
The irony is that if we appoint Moyes, you’ll probably go critical, but he’s exactly the sort of manager you’re looking for. Did years at Everton. Will probably be happy with a nice cosy job on the South Coast.
Mr Moshiri pays Everton £xxx million to advertise his investicore incorporation Ltd, increasing commercial income, creating a nice wedge to spend on players, managers, and wages.
Money’s only a problem if you don’t have it.
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!fuck, Splutter, frothing…Arhrrr NOOOOOOOOOO
His eyes stick too far out his head 
(this emoticon actually looks like David Moyes)
As for meltdown, fuck off, you aint seen nothing yet.
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
The final reason for this approach being a bit shit from a fans perspective is the ‘if only’ - Be really honest. as much as we are told we must hate Poch for his desertion, Cortese for being a cunt and wanting an autocratic regime… is anyone still in any doubt that had that combination still been here and with backing we might have had from ML had he not sadly passed away, we might be doing something a bit special right now?
I’m happy to agree to disagree about a lot of what you’re saying. The bit quoted is a bit much though…I shan’t be thrashing about losing sleep, wondering what could have been if one manager hadn’t moved onto to a bigger club, one egotistical CEO hadn’t been kicked out on his arse and if someone hadn’t died.
“oh, if only that one exam question had been different, I would have got a C at maths GCSE which meant I could have done A Levels and then got a degree and then got my dream job as a weatherman, instead, I’m collecting trolleys at Aldi. oh, if only I didn’t collect trolleys at Aldi, I wouldn’t have been hit by that car and had to have my leg amputated. Oh, if only I had two legs, I wouldn’t have any issues standing at a urinal. Oh, if only I could stand at a urinal, I wouldn’t end up falling into people next to me and covering us both with piss. Oh, if only I didn’t cover the bloke next to me in piss, I wouldn’t have been beaten to within an inch of my life. Oh, if only I wasn’t beaten to within an inch of my life, I would have been able to collect more trolleys and feed my family. Oh, if only my family hadn’t starved to death. Now I have no one and can’t even wipe my own arse properly, smearing shit all over my balls”
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Genuine lol here.
Sorry pap.
Fuck me abit of a Fatso rant there no? Calm down mate, you’ll bust a vein or something - are you having a melt down?.. which is good as it releases all that tension.
I aint losing on sleep either, to be honest, its not taht important, but since we are on here,its worth a bit of an opposing stance to th consensus - gets a bit borig if everyone just agrees all the time sucking each other off with vote ups 
Re. Pissing straight, t helps if you actually hold on to your cock rather than putting both hands behind your head in a sort of freestyle approach - always helps in a pissing contest…
Originally posted by @pap
Everyone else at the table thinks it a big risk for Ron’s career. I’m not sure I see that. Even if he gets sacked before Christmas, he’ll get a decent payout and few questions will be asked of failure at a new money club, especially after the seasons he has just delivered for Saints.
At worst, it may delay the ascension of Koeman to Barcelona, but even that is doubtful.
With the greatest of respect you’re talking pap, Pap. More than a few questions will be asked. He didn’t have a stellar managerial career prior to us so can’t fall back on 2 good seasons with us where he walked into a secure set up anyway (to put his achievements with us into a little perspective)
It would be a huge step back if he gets this wrong and would take some rehabilitation before someone the size of Barca were to give him a shot.
Having said that, I don’t expect him to get it wrong. Presumably he’ll be given time along with the money to revamp the squad.
He’s still a fuck-knuckle for leaving though
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May be it’s just me but I don’t really give a fuck if he goes or not. I’d sooner he fucks off now then hangs around for a season just seeing his contract out.
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This. Done the meltdown thing with the sacking of NA and then Poch going over to Spurs. If he’s going, i’d much rather he went in the next 24 hours and we got somebody in ASAP to replace him. Clean break.
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