A one state solution would presumably have a secular government offering fair representation for all. Iām with @Saint-or-sinner on this. Itās the only sane route out. The problem with that plan is that the Israeli minority will no longer be in control, much as the IDF has tried to balance that equation in the past few decades.
1 Like
We all know that is not going to happen so that can be taken off the table, no Jew will go for something that makes them stateless again, also take into account of (ironically) Arabs treatment of other religions than you know its a non starter.
I trust you know of the Samson option? Israel is here to stay, thats it its not going anywhere. Thats the reality of the situation.
Two state solution in which citizens of each nation can live in both.
I promise to comment on Hamas when the discussion is Hamas. Not when itās used to excuse crimes against humanity.
If you donāt want to talk about isreal on this thread, iāll leave you to it(it being anyone but isreal).
He got a lot right, and a lot wrong. If you look at Londonās spiralling murder rate, you could argue that while he was right to suggest that an influx of different cultures would lead to violence, he was wrong to think interracial violence would be the issue. The murders in London are primarily gang related; most of the victims are from the Afro-Caribbean community.
Thatās what Powell got wrong. Apart from a few nutters that are so few in number they canāt force their way out of Liverpool Lime Street station on an organised march, inter-racial violence largely came and went. The seventies and eighties really saw the last of mass brawls between races because of race. By the 90s, riots were multi-racial, init 
What Powell didnāt predict were the socio-economic conditions that would leave young black nippers in London penniless and prowled upon by the Old Bill, with criminality and gang membership being a path that many take out of poverty. He should have. London has been the same for centuries; the Irish will tell you that.
Thatās what he got wrong, and perhaps the impression of what he said in that infamous speech put enough pressure on politicians to ensure that social barriers were maintained. That is possibly the worst part of his legacy.
Its an awful lot more nuanced that that, the Chinese and Indian youth seem to do ok, why? Absent fathers? Culture? Religion?
And the question Liverpool patting itself on the back against those fascists is worrying as I have never heard on introspection to why they chose Liverpool? Liverpool in apart from the posh middle class multi cultural areas isnāt particularly mixed, its a very white City compared to many in the UK.
Iām sorry, Barry. That is plainly wrong. Many Orthodox Jews in the diaspora have theological reasons for not wanting a Jewish homeland.
Youāre conflating Judaism with the zionist settlement project. They are two entirely separate things, with adherents of either faction often in ideological combat with each other.
1 Like
So youāre saying Jews would propose and accept to lose their homeland, can you link that concerning the diaspora wanting to have a one state solution or wanting the demise of Israel.
Maybe the fathers are absent because theyāve been banged up or dead on account of being involved in criminality, Bazza. Iām fairly certain that the link hasnāt crossed your mind.
For you, the ghouls du jour just arrive as ready made villains, init.
Russians, Muslims, black lads that donāt look after their kids. All evil the minute they were born, no consideration given to the circumstances of their creation. And especially Hamas.
Iāll sign off with three further revelations and some faint praise.
First, if a bunch of Romans turned up mob-handed in the UK, over-powering the local populace, and pushing them into a couple of heavily guarded enclaves, there would be something like Hamas in Britain. Bitterly opposed to an occupying foreign power, prepared to use violence, and most importantly, legally entitled to use violence as an occupied people. If Israel had contained itself to the internationally agreed limits of its sovereignty, Hamas would be entirely illegitimate. Israel has not.
Second, Hamas is in part a creation of the Israeli state. The other Palestinian groups of the day were becoming far too moderate for the apparatus of the Israeli administration of the day, so Hamas was sponsored by Israel during its early days, with the express intent of creating a more agitating agitator than the people they were dealing with then.
My last revelation is subjective, and certainly cannot be regarded as anything truthful or legally actionable, but in my mind, you are this forumās Homer Simpson.
Finally, the faint praise. I admire the simplicity of your life and wish I could have it, just like I do with Homer.
You donāt address the point, we can agree though its environment.
In fact on that you donāt address any real points, just crap Pap, as per.
Perhaps you could point out which point I have not addressed, Barry.
1 Like
Never mind, Iāve seen it now.
There are people that identify as Jewish all over the world, Barry. Not all of them believe in a Jewish homeland. Some are actively against the principle in the abstract, others are against the reality as practiced in the State of Israel.
The appetite for a specific Jewish homeland really came about in the late 19th century, and at that point, Palestine was just a candidate location.
Well for a start you donāt address the absenteeism you just say theyāre ābanged upā or ādeadā which statistically is highly unlikely.
The next thing you forget to mention the Chinese and Indian immigrants and subsequent families, weāre sort of agree I can assume its environment in which these kids are brought up?
Did Israel create Hamas? Iād look that up again if I were you, this is the trouble with google.
Seem to be having two discussions here. Isreal and the other well race / gang and some assumptions.
1 Like
So you canāt link anything to back that ignorant claim up then?
The state of Israel and the idea of a home nation is indeed a relatively modern concept, what the fuck that has to do with anything is beyond me, they have always wanted to return to Palestine in some form.
Are you just imagining these āfactsā, mate?
I can source every bit of information Iāve provided, from the historical record to the relevant text in the Torah.
Political zionism is a relatively new project. The first gathering was in 1898. I would be genuinely interested in the projects that you obviously know about that pre-date that date.
Over to you.
I like the way you say political Zionism, you know full well there was a yearning and belief to return to Zion long long before that, youāre using that fact and misplacing it I hope in purpose or it would show your ignorance.
That answer was a bit similar to how Hamas was formed.
Spurious Pap.
Hamas was created, in part, by Israel, as a counterweight to the secularists of the PLO. Divide and rule. They donated millions of dollars to create Hamas. Of course, as these things do, it has come back to bite them on the arse. Just like the US funding the Mujahideen/Taliban. Blowback is a bastard!
1 Like
I don/t know that, full well.
Perhaps sir would like to clarify his convictions, in full, with evidence, so I can respond to it properly.