Political IMO. Anyone on the LEAVE side if vote goes REMAIN, is political career over + branded Racist. If they’re on the REMAIN side, they’ve still got 10yrs of I told you so, cos everything will be a bit pear shaped while things are being Sorted Out.
You have indeed presented your own case for Leave eloquently and its obvious to all that you dispise all the racist cunts etc that are perhaps ruining a more more balanced view of the values that some share with you re democratic principles etc.
But, the challenge is that no matter how much you want to present the arguments for leave in a rational way, I do honestly believe that many of the leave VOTERS see immigration as the main focal point for their vote. The fact that that some have switched from Leave to remain, seems as a result of wanting to distance themselves from any association that goes with it.
I can understand why they would do this, but can also appreciate its unfair and undemocratic that folks feel they can no longer vote with their rational opinion for fear of being tarnished with that distateful tag.
The moment that any of those campaigning for Leave, brought up immigration, especially in the way they have done, it made it impossible for many (including me) to vote leave , because I simply can not reconcile myself with those kind of policies. We are human beings and should have the rights to move and live where we want. If we then contribute to local communities,we should get the benefits that community gets… it really is that simple.
The fear, ignorance and biggotted rhetoric spread by Farage and his ilk has ruined the debate, and alienated many. Will it be enough to see Remain scrape through? I dont know. BUt if Leave win, the thought of those racist cunts celebrating makes me feel pretty sick to be honest pap.
I know this should never be a single issue debate, but those on the extreme right have made it that and I feel obliged to to counter it, to focus on this highly moral and very human issue, no matter what I think of the other much more complex challenges.
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PS… If anything its for the exact reasons who previously suggested I should consider… lessons learned and all that. A political lurch to the right and a validation of some of those principles, is not soimething I am prepared to just watch happen…
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Has Cameron delibrately fucked up the remain campaign so that people vote leave, which is probably what he would want anyway. but can then say I told everybody to remain.
And if they do vote out surely he will have to call a general election as the country have effectively said Fuck you Cameron were out of here and you should be out of 10 Downing street.
Is it true that a BT poll of 50,000 punters showed 80% to 20% brexit but BT were ordered to take this down from their site? 
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The trouble is the facts are really elusive and you have to plough through the headline bollocks that both sides are using to suit their agendas, or you have to hunt information to make a proper call.
I’m so dull I’ve looked into the complex world of trade deals and I can see no way that economically we will benefit from leaving.
If people think that we will suddenly have the freedom to open up new revenue streams, they have been misled - there will be complex restrictions that will take many years to negotiate through and we will have no power in those talks.
I’m also concerned that too many people cannot look beyond immigration, and blindly believe that we can halt any problems by voting Leave.
With every passing day I stumble across a good reason to Remain, and I’m trying to base it on the opinion of experts rather than random people lined up to support each side.
Pap - I think you and I disagree on this one - so what am I missing?
(keep it brief!)
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People haven’t even considered that if they win the reaction towards the labour party and tories will be hard, who’ll benefit? UKIP, they will get probably 10 MP’s in an election, enough to be disruptive.
The second thing is the Scottish referendum issue, do you think that’s gone away? It’ll come and you can be sure many people will be pressing for another EU out vote, this isn’t the end at all its the start, Sweden, Denmark and possibly Belgium to vote on out and also Greece being kick out to boot!
All looking good for leave campaign in the long run, stay strong brothers freedom awaits, our day will come.
Brief. We shouldn’t validate or want to belong to an organisation that thinks a dictatorship comprised of the establishment is an appropriate form of government for half a billion people.
Farage is in a win win with this referendum and he knows it, he’ll lose this vote but gain a few million voters for a general election in reaction.
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Brief. We shouldn’t validate or want to to belong to a country that is voting based on ignorance of and fear of migrants, despite all that is wrong with the current system.
When it comes to a choice, I believe that Remain presents the lesser of the two evils. One is a political choice, the oter a human one imho. Given that I am comfortable with making a political compromise.
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So your vote is based upon immigration but no one else is allowed to?
I’m all for being anti-establishment but at some point I welcome some organisation that keeps collecting the bins or making streetlights work.
Anarchy looks cool, but people in Guy Fawkes masks don’t tend to embrace dull admin and our world needs a bit of that.
I don’t believe the EU is a dictatorship, even though Germany, France and ourselves are able, to some degree, to impose our will on smaller less powerful nations.
The Clash never solved it, but I can see nothing about leaving that looks more attractive than staying.
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Just ask the Greeks.
Everyone is allowed to Barry…that is democracy. But those voting Leave because of fear and ignorance on the subject are cunts.
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I don’t have an issue with migration per se. I think we have benefitted enormously from migration over the years. However, i do have an issue with the efeects of uncontrollable migration. Our public services are stretched, Hospitals are swamped and affordable housing has all but disappeared and wages are being kept low by a ready supply of people willing to work for the minimum wage. We need to put the brakes on to let our public services, housing and wages catch up. We cannot do this whilst we have open borders. It is not about being racist or xenophobic, but being pragmatic with the resources that we have.
My other concern is not so much what the EU is now, but what it will become. A lot of remainers say that they still want to see root and branch reform of the EU. IMO it will never happen, if the UK cannot secure meaningful reform with the threat of a referendum hanging over it, then what chance of it ever happening when that horse has already bolted. The EU manadarins will see a remain vote as a validation of everything they have done to date and a signal to crack on, full steam ahead.
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Luckily because I never registered at the Embassy (plus I don’t live in EU) I Can’t vote. Been boring the socks off me tbh.
Every atom of my being tells me that the EU is NOT what I voted for in Ted Heaths’ referendum. I see the insane waste (beef mountain dumped in the GCC states with the highest per capita income while you got ripped off for it as an example from the '90s)
I do not trust a single word any Politician says as they are only imho motivated in keeping their Job for the next 4 years & no interest in the future generations.
So I should be out. It is the only way due to the technocrats who run EU affairs. It is wrong.
But then I’m married to a Polish girl we have land here & one day want to build a house & retire in a land where the cost of living is so low & the local city of Krakow is possibly the best place in Europe. The EU let’s me do that. It let’s me brink 30kg of Pig & Vodka back for Glasto.
So, for once I would be really selfish and would vote Stay even if it is eventually going to end in tears.
It’s not just the duopoly of France and Germany. It’s the outright collusion of organisations like the EU Commission, the ECB and the IMF in maintaining the financial system, and dictating to places like Greece in order to get their way.
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Originally posted by @CB-Saint
I don’t have an issue with migration per se. I think we have benefitted enormously from migration over the years.
Correct, we have, and we continue to do so.
However, i do have an issue with the efeects of uncontrollable migration.
Debatable. Even with the dracionian and non-sensical measures put in place, Non-EU Migration is at higher levels than EU migration.
Our public services are stretched, Hospitals are swamped and affordable housing has all but disappeared and wages are being kept low by a ready supply of people willing to work for the minimum wage. We need to put the brakes on to let our public services, housing and wages catch up.
Our public services are stretched becuase they are having their funding slashed.
Hospitals are struggling as we are living longer, moving less, eating more shit and having less kids (i.e. average age of population is increasing). EU migration has a benefit on this, as migrants that come are generally younger and healthier. Therefore they are much less likely to use hospitals, and make a net contribution in that respect.
The housing problem is far more to do with us selling off huge swathes of social housing and not replacing it. Migrants, EU or not, may increase demand slightly, but they also generate wealth whilst here. The simple fact is, migration or not we have not built enough houses for years. There are other factors too, such as people living longer and more families separating than previously.
The effects of EU migration on wages are hugely over stated. The only real impact it is proven to have is a slight impact on the very lowest paid workers. Obviously this is not ideal, and needs to be improved upon. But the idea that leaving will suddenly elevate all the lowest paid workers is a myth. The effects on wages are offset by the economic benefits of the EU, trade and the single market. The economic impact of leaving will hit these people much harder.
We cannot do this whilst we have open borders. It is not about being racist or xenophobic, but being pragmatic with the resources that we have.
I disagree. I think it is xenophobic to blindly blame immigrants for all of our problems. Closing the borders will not solve the problems you list above. It is a trick as old as time, rich folk blaming poor(er) folk as the reason you aren’t better off. That is not to say you specifically xenophobic or racist, but I think the approach is.
My other concern is not so much what the EU is now, but what it will become. A lot of remainers say that they still want to see root and branch reform of the EU. IMO it will never happen, if the UK cannot secure meaningful reform with the threat of a referendum hanging over it, then what chance of it ever happening when that horse has already bolted. The EU manadarins will see a remain vote as a validation of everything they have done to date and a signal to crack on, full steam ahead.
That is also debatable. Brussels will be aware of what is going on. There is a growing facist movement in Europe at the minute. There is a growing number of people that are unhappy with the way the EU has been moving. I don’t think there will be great strides towards further integration for a while. I did read an interesting article on this exact topic the other day, I’m desperately trying to find it. But can’t remember where it was. If i can I will share the link.
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…I would add gain though Pap that all your arumnet is based on what teh EU has done… not on what it could and should do…or how we could be part of something better.
Its like saying you woudl never vote for a party again becaus eof what 1PM did in the past in some respects.
Again, IMHO, when somethin is fucked, you doen walk away fromit.You comitt to trying to make it better no matter how bog teh challenge or how long it will take.
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