I’ve met the general public a few times, it rarely ends well.
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Independent poll tomorrow, the paper I’ll add puts leave at 55%, I don’t believe it but it proves how people really and quite rightly do not trust the current regime.
Not quite Goaty. I am saying they SHOULD know best as they have time to access an didgest the information and they SHOULD make their policy on EU clear in their manifesto… unfortunately, because there is no in party consensus (as it would fracture all parties) they do a Pontious Pilot and let the masses decide… so we can only blame ourselves for whatever happens after, either way…and once again those we have elected get off free of any charge.
With repsect to emotive decisons. This is where the scaremongering features, but perhaps more difficult is the explain is WHY some feel emotionally connected to such issues as sovereignty or those that are more comfortable with more centralised control. Some folks simply believe its important to have more localised control, others less so. Like party aliegences, for many the in or out seemsingraned in their psyche… like the irrational fuckwitage of believing the Daily Mail offers a fair view…
I believe its a simple question of scale… and there are some wierd disconnects - eg SNP want autonomy from UK, but remain in EU…go figure… Some have an ingrained fear and distrust of jonnny foreigner, others even more overt xenophobia… for others its practical local control usually for local reasons.
For me, my philosophy is born out of time. Geological/biological time - as someone who studied evolutionary biology, I simply cant understand why folks get so fussed about borders nations, nationality etc… given that our current ones in the EU are in some cases only 25 year old, and at best 1000 or so… on a planet that is approx 4500,000,000 years old… so in the grand scheme of things borders and artifically created divisions mean fuck all.
Now I appreciate from a political and practical perspective this might seem rather churlish and naive, but from a philosphical one, I think it has merit. Why? because of our focus/agenda and priorities are all wrong. WHO governs us, is to me much less important than HOW they govern us. WHERE we are governed from is much less important that HOW we are governed.
For me its also about fact that we seem now destined to be stuck with Tories and the only viable opposition will be Torylites… the fact there will be a few left wingers , even a few nutty communists in an EU Parliament to rough things up a bit is a good thing… but ultimately, it still comes back to the cop out fact that I cant be arsed with those who place SO much emphasis on the things that mean so little. Nationality, borders and divisions. Whether Government sits in Brussels or Westminster or Holyrood they are all the same bunch of self serving cunts.
The bigger the pool, the bigger the chance that a few of them might have some conviction… one can hope, surely?
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You don’t believe the poll but it proves that people don’t trust the current regime? How does that work then? Something you don’t believe is now being used as proof of something else?
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I don’t believe the leave campaign is that far ahead my little tubby punter, now jog on get a bun and relax its friday.
Barry’s mind is like the unfathomable depths of the EU Commission…best not try and unravel it as you will go insane…
Yes, that’s what I said…you don’t believe the poll but also believe that it proves something?
Thanks for the clarification GA. What you say does make a lot of sense.
It still doesn’t really address the central concern of many, which is an unelected executive that is consistently seeking more power, working in collusion with the ECB and the IMF.
Local, national, trans-national - I don’t give a fuck. I want the power to remove these people, or it isn’t a democracy.
I realise how little my vote is worth, but regardless, I want it anyway.
I cannot see how anyone can vote to belong to something that designed a bloody dictatorship into its fabric when re-inventing itself in 2006.
People said a big “no” to that, btw. It went ahead and did exactly the same things anyway.
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The out campaign seems to be based on immigration/ immigrants sometimes bordering on racism and the in campaign on how worse off we will be financially and the economy from a money from an individuals point of view.
Desperate to gather more Intel before voting day, but people I speak to either come across a bit racist for out and money money money for in!!!
This too makes sense and is basically what swings my vote.
pap using his own site for political gain. I’d rather see Steve and Baj using their site for financial gain. Oh.
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I hate that fact that if you say you’re voting Out then you are imeddiately accused of being borderline racist. Yes immigration, more the rate of it, is an issue but the Out campaign is more than just that.
Pap has highlighted one of the other major reasons putting it into much better words than I could.
The financial reasons for staying in don’t stack up with me, they’re all based on models and predictions from top level economists whi, lets be honest, haven’t got anything right over the last 5-10 years…
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I rarely end up on the winning side of these debates, Fatso.
AV, General Elections, Scotland - none of them went the way I’d have preferred. I’ve probably swayed more people on Facebook and in real life than I’ll ever manage here.
The only gain I really get out of it is recording some semblance of my feelings.
And I still think you’re a dick.
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Don’t get me wrong, perhaps it is because I am in Cumbria, but they are very stong for out and I am sorry to say that most border on the rasist “need to get the foreigners out and get our country back” or along those lines have been used quite often. Now I can see past this, but have not really heard a balenced view from anyone up here, when talking about it. It is very out and mainly for the reasons mentioned. I think it is because they are a little bitter that they believe that they miss out on everything for the south of England, kind of like a chip on many shoulders.
Me, I am in the middle and yet to make up my mind, but I will, one way or the other. Just need to work out who has more pros for me and the country than cons, just like when voting in the GE.
As Bear once said, “you is more dick than cunt, pap”.
I’ll take that.
Originally posted by @BTripz
Originally posted by @Sfcsim
The out campaign seems to be based on immigration/ immigrants sometimes bordering on racism and the in campaign on how worse off we will be financially and the economy from a money from an individuals point of view.
Desperate to gather more Intel before voting day, but people I speak to either come across a bit racist for out and money money money for in!!!
I hate that fact that if you say you’re voting Out then you are imeddiately accused of being borderline racist. Yes immigration, more the rate of it, is an issue but the Out campaign is more than just that.
Immigration is only a problem because of problems elsewhere. If there were funding, the only issues that people would have would be the cultural ones, much easier to overcome if people aren’t being told that the reason they’re not getting something is because somebody else is.
I’ve had people on Facebook lay the charge before, only for one of my Aunts to roll in with her Muslim first name and say “I’m voting out too, babes!”. That was lols. Most of my immigrant family are voting out. That’s possibly because many of us are all over a certain age, but it does rather lance the myth (for me, at least) that this is a concern limited to the white British majority.
Pap has highlighted one of the other major reasons putting it into much better words than I could.
That’s pretty much been my issue for years now. There is no defence of anti-democratic process, particularly when conceived so recently, particularly when we’ve already seen anti-democracy do its thing, and particularly when it is seeking to militarise itself.
If the EU introduces its own army and police force, what will it do with them? It cannot do nothing. Nothing doesn’t justify the cost. What influence will individual citizens have over such institutions. Will we have the power to stop them from going somewhere?
The financial reasons for staying in don’t stack up with me, they’re all based on models and predictions from top level economists whi, lets be honest, haven’t got anything right over the last 5-10 years…
It’s pure scaremongering, and it is a pity that both sides have decided to engage in it. There are immediate economic benefits that Brexit will bring to certain sectors, especially those mothballed for the greater European good. British employers will be forced to invest in our young, not being able to pick and choose from a labour market of 500 million.
I’ve got a fair idea of British history, and history in general. Regardless of when you pick, or who you look at, history is dominated by elites. Historically, these elites have been extremely reluctant to cede any power or wealth.
They end up having to when the public won’t take any more. Scraps of democracy are thrown at the electorate in a bid to placate them, typically not a great deal in isolation. Over time, such concessions have come to form the basis of consent under which society operates. As long as nobody takes the piss too much, life rolls on.
Elites hate democracy and spend a lot of time and money to ensure that it can be controlled. Lobbyists, campaign donations, cash for access, ownership of the media. It is a royal pain in the arse for them, and even then, it may not work. There are some things the public just won’t stand for.
The EU gets around the pesky issue of most of Europe developing its own internal democratic practices by creating an over-arching framework, able to override the democratically arrived at decisions, designed from the start to be an effective dictatorship.
If the EU comes out in the next two weeks and tells us that they’ll reform themselves into a democratic organisation, I may change my vote, depending on whether I believe them or not.
As constituted, I just can’t.
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Vote Remain or your pension and the NHS get it.
Continuing to build a positive case for stay, ol’ Dave.
Anything that starts with “David Cameron says” I do not believe!