We’re told the pound could lose its value if we Brexit. I am by no means an expert on economics, so I’ll defer to your knowledge on the issue, but we know the effects of this natural devaluation that we’re anticipating should we leave the Union.
First off, pounds will be cheaper. It’ll be shit for any of us going abroad and slightly more shit for buying things from overseas, but good for anyone that wants to buy things from us, including us.
It may mean that we’re less attractive to people that want to utilise disparities in economies. It may result in us being more self-reliant. I don’t think it’ll be the economic apocalypse that many are predicting. We’ll just see change.
One of the key planks of the Remain argument is that such change will destroy us. We’re the descendants of people that had bombs dropped on us, an armada sent to destroy us, and have resisted every attempt at invasion for 950 years. I honestly believe we’re made of some fairly stern stuff. If we’ve historically survived all that, I don’t think quitting an empire (as Barroso himself likes to describe it) will ruin us.
We’re told the pound could lose its value if we Brexit. I am by no means an expert on economics, so I’ll defer to your knowledge on the issue, but we know the effects of this natural devaluation that we’re anticipating should we leave the Union.
First off, pounds will be cheaper. It’ll be shit for any of us going abroad and slightly more shit for buying things from overseas, but good for anyone that wants to buy things from us, including us. It does mean that we could be more attractive vendors for people outside the UK. It may mean that we’re less attractive to people that want to utilise disparities in economies. It may result in us being more self-reliant. I don’t think it’ll be the economic apocalypse that many are predicting. We’ll just see change.
One of the key planks of the Remain argument is that such change will destroy us. We’re the descendants of people that had bombs dropped on us, an armada sent to destroy us, and have resisted every attempt at invasion for 950 years. I honestly believe we’re made of some fairly stern stuff. If we’ve historically survived all that, I don’t think quitting an empire (as Barroso himself likes to describe it) will ruin us.
Fuck me pap, you gone all churchillian on us - rolling out the grandiose propoganda with true style. Not quite sure though that this sort of jingoistic chest thumping is that appealing in 2016…
Addressing the EU Commission point separately, because it is my ultimate deal breaker.
How on earth do you Remain people justify it?
The best excuse I’ve ever managed to conjure is that such a body is necessary to “secure the revolution”, just like the Bolshevik one that never seemed to go away.
That is hard to square with the European Constitution enshrining a selected dictatorship into its proposals, some fifty odd years after the start of the project.
No wonder it was so roundly rejected. Shame we got it anyway with the Lisbon Treaty.
I haven’t really got that much time for Churchill. Too enthusiastic for war, in my personal estimation, and was enough of a supremacist in his own way, just for his warped view of what it meant to be English. I’ve read accounts of the outbreak of the First World War. According to Asquith’s wife, everyone apart from Churchill was ashen-faced at this grim prospect. “Winston alone was buoyant”, her memoirs say.
My point relates to the fact that this island has dealt with a lot of shit, and I do not constrain myself to mere jingoism. As inheritors of the remnants of empire, we have to face uncomfortable truths about where our wealth and position have come from.
Churchill never thought that. He saw British supremacy of a point of truth. In his blackest moments, I am sure that he himself will have recognised his own part in the downfall of the concept. During his political life, he saw the fragile height of empire in 1919 and its destruction in 1945. Simultaneously the greatest and worst PM of all time. I am not trying to invoke him.
What I am trying to say is that we are not a 950+ year old civilisation for nothing, and we have proven we have the capability to adapt across the centuries.
Sorry, at what point did I become a “Remain person”? Chances are I’ll cast my vote to stay in the EU, but this will be because I view it as the better of two options, neither of which is great.
As I’d see it the European Commission is like a civil service, Do you expect that to be elected? Hardly. Should too much power be invested in it? No. But it has to have powers nonetheless. As I said in an earlier post, it’s a question of balance.
If the member states of the EU decide to change the balance of power then the EU Commission simply have to accept it. They don’t get a vote on it. Neither do bureaucrats or lobbyists. The latter have plenty of clout in our entirely domestic political system of course. If Parliament in this country passed a law restricting or even banning lobbyists would those lobbyists be able to stop it?
Sorry, at what point did I become a “Remain person”? Chances are I’ll cast my vote to stay in the EU, but this will be because I view it as the better of two options, neither of which is great.
It was a general call to those supporting the Remain argument, not necessarily pointed at you in particular.
As I’d see it the European Commission is like a civil service, Do you expect that to be elected? Hardly. Should too much power be invested in it? No. But it has to have powers nonetheless. As I said in an earlier post, it’s a question of balance.
It’s the complete opposite arrangement in my view, from an ideological perspective at least.
The traditional role of the civil service has been the implementor of policies set by Parliament. I am realistic - I realise that even in our society, the civil service can feedback and let a government know what is possible. I don’t see it as a thoughtless and commandable institution, more one that can enable a government to enact its policies using the institutions and Departments available. Ultimately though, it’s there to serve the will of Parliament.
The arrangement with the EU Commission is quite different. The EU Parliament is _solely _there to ratify the decisions of the Commission, and cannot direct what you’re describing in a civil service in any way. Our Parliament can remove our civil service. The European Parliament cannot remove the European Commission.
If the EU Commission is a civil service, then we have an arrangement where the civil service has the whip hand over elected politicians, and just a decade ago, was looking to enshrine that state permanently. Is that a civil service the average Briton would accept, or pay for?
Now, I’ll agree that the Remain campaign has been hyperbolic in its utterances. However, I have yet to see any claim that leaving the EU would destroy this country, or of economic apocalypse. If you want the economic argument, then I’d sugggest you pay some attention to what the IFS has to say. They can’t be seriously accused of partisanship and their resarch and modelling are rigorous.
Also, purely on the economic front, bear in mind how many serious economists and economic bodies (and not all of them wedded to the current neo-liberal orthodoxy) suggest that a British exit from the EU will have negative economic consequences. No, not apocalyptic, not ruinous, just negative. Then weigh this against the economists who say the opposite. That’ll be Patrick Minford and seven others then. A group so nutty that even Ruth Lea, the fabulously nutty former Policy Dirrector of the Institute of Directors, hastily distanced herself from them.
And, as an aside, why not read or listen to what’s actually said by those saying it, as opposed to those reporting or responding to it? As I’ve mentioned above, nobody has predicted economic apocalypse or ruin. Negative cconsequences have been suggested, but way short of that. From what I can see, much of the hyperbolic stuff has come from reactions. Here’s an example. Cameron made a speech in which he claimed that this country’s security is best served by staying in the EU, and that wee would lose a lot of that by leaving the EU. Boris Johnson responded by saying that talk of world war three breaking out in Europe if we leave the EU is ridiculous. All of a sudden it becomes accepted truth that Cameron has claimed that our leaving the EU will lead to world war three. Far be it from me to defend Cameron, but that’s how this particular episode went.
Similarly, can you find me anything in which Cameron, Osborne or anyone else on the remain side is actually predicting apocalypse or ruin if we leave? If you can, I’ll offer you in return a poster and campaign suggesting (and in no uncertain terms) that Turkey will be an EU member state very soon, and that millions of gun-weilding Turkish criminals will then be wending their merry way to these shores.
The tories are relying on the Labour Party in letting in Turkey, realpolitik, you heard it here first and it does make sense doesn’t once you let it run through your head.
So far, we’ve been told that we’ll go into recession, that we’ll lose trade, we’ll lose jobs and house prices will plummet by 18%. I may have taken artistic licence with the term economic apocalypse in describing this accumulation of foretold economic crises, but the effect is the same. Vote out, and we’re fucked on a number of fronts.
The IFS is making the bold assertion that Brexit would increase austerity by another two years, a claim that immediately makes me doubt its independent status. Is it not, by treating austerity as a point of truth, demonstrating itself to be aligned to a given set of policies? What place does the IFS have in determining whether austerity should be applied, or is in fact inevitable?
The nibbleathon between Cameron and diverting is interesting enough, but standard political fayre. Cameron gave an inch and Boris took a mile. I’m not really interested in how them two decide to do each other up, but Cameron opened the door, imo.
What I am interested in is how you get around those pesky deal breakers. How does a democrat justify voting Remain with the unresolved baggage?
So what chance of the EU member states actually switching the primacy of the commission to the parliament? It will never happen unless something cataclysmic happens, like the UK waving two fingers at them. Otherwise if we stay in, what incentive is their for them to change?
We have been promised reform by successive governments and when we finally had a go, we came back with a load of bullshit changes because the rest of the club told us to do one. When it comes down to the brass tacks, we have very little influence with what happens over there, we are one small voice. Oh yes, wrt those hard won concessions, they still have to get through the EU parliament and there are already noises being made that it difficult to implement.
this is boiling down to which set of crooked bastards I want running the Uk, and I would rather it was the crooked bunch of bastards I could get rid of from time to time.
The bigger question is will we still all be friends after this is all over? Or will this cause permanent rifts in the deep online relationships formed through years of virtual bonding and sexual tension?
In a way I see this site as a microcosm of the real world on this issue, as we see strange new bedfellows unite against a common ‘threat’ - Bazza flying like Icarus, enjoying his moment in the sun… Pap the proud Daedelus watching… (encouraging ever higher flight…) Bearsy, torn between using his bow and arrow or awaiting the invetiable loss of feathers. Phil playing at playing golf. The papsworld Tories in a bit of a muddle, yet remaining stoic. Gay talking shite as he refuses to take any of this seriously on a football forum. Bletch still being a cunt (for continuity purposes only )
I hope there is room for Truth and Reconciliation after from June 25th onwards. Gay or whatever I shall be known as by then, is happy to facilitate such a commission although I may need advices from Turk & Fry LLD on past post trawling to pull together all the evidence. If we approach this with open minds my friends, and without prejudice, I am sure peace, harmony etc can be restored to mutual benefit.
Well, KRG seems to have taken the hump over this thread. Fuck knows why. I’ve just re-read the whole thing, focusing on my content to see if it was dismissive or in denial or whatever. Rather boringly, it’s a series of statements of my own views on the subject, or what I thought were interesting perspectives from elsewhere. I have been shockingly lazy on the ad hominem and abuse front. Fucking EU - ruining my best game!
The spiciest confrontations on this thread are between Barry and KRG. Fowllyd’s recent contributions have excellent in terms of getting the discussion back onto substantive, non-shouty ground.
Because the most liberal or supposed are often the most easily offended, its the state of a young mind reluctant in experience and knowledge to know the World is a shite place.
Barry wisdom - so smart it is unintelligable to us mere mortals - one day when old and wizened Iwill be able to decipher the above with ease, until such a time, can someone please translate as I dont speak this particular dialect of idiot
Yes I see it now… but ishe not making a rather naive assumption? Afterall it it rather naive to to base such a claim on a few posts on an anonymous web forum - where not everyone choses to protray their true selves at all times? Papsworld is full of deceit and cunning masked character…
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