But where do you draw the line between “Supernatural” and “The Power of the Human Mind”? Which can then link back to the Ghost Story - either in the way that maybe the Mind / Soul does hang around or maybe the Mind can “See things” (Which at the end of the day is what I think happened to me).
Having used Hypnosis in a work environment and studied the science behind it, I can argue both sides for “Mediums”.
Yes you can use advanced mind techniques like NLP to discover information and perhaps create a “false” Medium Experience, but equally I have seen the human mind do things that seem impossibleand I doubt very much they have ever been Scientificaly proven.
For example, the Orgasm Gun - (Yes Bear it works, Yes Bear you can learn it, no Bear I cannot post a link because, Yes Bear of course I have used it, what else is a man to do when MotD is on Telly and…)
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It is rather pointless - far smarter and more rational men have tried to debate with reason to those taken in by the woo peddlers and still it survives - because people simply want to believe… the defnece on here is the classic woo lines so it clear I am too late, you have been woo’d by the ‘kind and caring’ do gooders - who travel the country helping people (how do they travel? I bet its not the redeyenational express coach, or hitching a ride… how do they pay for thsi travel I ask you?) you see its always about the money… and until you look for the the money trail you will reamin taken in my it… sorry, that is not a belief, its sadly a fact.
You do yourself no favours with the “woo peddler” stuff Gay. I didnt have you down for a closed minded individual. You say that the New Age “industry” is a con and is worth billions. What of the pharmaceutical industry? I am sure that is worth a lot more and that millions of people are taking tablets every day that they dont need. My doctor is very supportive of alternative therapies and would rather recommend a hynotherapiest or a course of reiki than a course of tablets. Is he a “woo peddler” too?
Again how does he travel? On a broomstick obviously! You keep going on about money. Really, you need to get over this obsession of yours. A “woo peddler” sorted out many of the problems I had that the NHS couldnt and that is all that matters isnt it? If it works for you, fine. The NHS costs us billions but still I cant be prescribed a course of treatment under the “alternative” label even though agreed by my GP and I have to pay for that separately. I can get a bunch of drugs for nothing though that will mask the symptoms.
Knock New Age all you like, but there is an awful lot of knowledge in that section of the library or bookshop that even modern scientists agree that has merit. Perhaps you should try reading up on it instead of dismissing it out of hand? At least then we might get past the “woo peddler” mentality that is worthy of our friend CB Fry.
Sorry SOG, you are once ain wrong about ‘open mind’ and you also need to start to separate diferent issues.
1.There is a scientific basis for hypnosis, acupuncture etc - does not work with everyone, but can help some albeit usually not permanently
'Alternative therapies - firstly woo peddlers love this term because it alows them to be bucketed with thereapies that have some scientific if little understood merit - adding… false credibilty
Of course some doctors presecribe unnecessary drugs, but given that symptom control is often all that can be done on many cases (viruses, colds, flue, pain etc), that is to be expected. As for alternatives working, you simply can not ignore the placebo effect. Its why new medicines are often compared to placebo in phase 2 and phase 3 trials because response rates to placebo are often in excess of 20% - New medicines have to show statistically significantly advnatages over this to meet the primary study endpoints. The woo stuff has never been properly put through any rigorous clinical study, which is again to their advantage… you will always be pointed to one of the 20% helped by the placebo effect as ‘evidence’ for its effectiveness.
4.Some doctors will advice on seeking such alternatives when previous approaches have not worked or may not be suitable and again placebo effect kicks in in some cases - but seriously in over 80%+ of such situations there is no benefit, but you dont get that peddled to you by the various woo healers.
NOw you have introduced a new term - ‘new age’, yep the crystal healers and all that nonsense can be added to this and sometimes these are extra fucking dnagerous when they stop people getting the treatment they should be having… but that is another debate.
YOu have still not answered the question how your ‘I do it for free’ woo peddler travels around the country and how he lives?How does he get his money to live on travel, stay in hotels or whatever? Seriously, have you looked into it? Broomstick, come on… although I suspect if he said he did, most who believe in this shit would accept that too…
YOu cant get woo stuff on the NHS there is no clinical evidence of its efficacy or safety - or indeed cost effectiveness. That is the same for all the medicines that you suggest only mask symptoms - ‘mask symptoms’? has your woo peddler taught you this? They dont mask symptoms, they reduce or manage and that is what they were designed for and have been through rigorours clinical studies to provide evidnce for…very simple really
Yes there are an AWFUL lot of books on the subject… libraries and bookshops are full of this crap (because as mentioned, there is a fucking huge wedge to be earned through peddling this shit - its always about the money) but you will find fuck all of any scientific merit published in any serious scientifically peer reviewed journal where comprehensive studies have been done to determine effectiveness and efficacy.
Its ALWAYS about the money SOG, Always and I will keep banging that drum until it hits home because thee evil twats are so fucking good at getting inside folks heads and conning them over years in fleeced donations and payments. Its always about the money.
…You have been well trained SOG, because you did not answerany of my previous points - because I suspect you know there is no response…
I’ve just caught up on this thread and sorry, Gay, but your arguments are so wrong-headed and biased that I don’t have the time or inclination to debate them (I knew I shouldn’t have got involved in the first place). It seems clear that you have some sort of deep and long-running personal vendetta against charlatan spiritualists (quite rightly in my opinion), but it means that you can’t think straight on the wider topic of the potential for the existence of ghosts more generally. I’m out.
Good that you are as for a scientist not to expect rigorous scientific study to test hypotheses before accepting them is rather odd. You also fail to see that its science that has the open mind because it is open to any explanation - and its the woo peddlers that are closed to only one explanation without any scientifc evidence… strange that.
I have no personal vendetta against anyone - but you are wrong again, I dont have anything against charleton spiritualists,I have something against ALL of them as they are all peddling the same nonsense and are conning people. Its how they all work. Its not surprizing that a few on here seem taken in by this rubbish given how they have managed to convince so many of the public.
Finally, you need to go and check the definition of bias. You accuse me of it, but my ‘hardline’ opinion is merely a reflection of the lack of any scientific evidence to support woo claims - its not biassed at all, merely in inverse proportion to the their level of evidence.
I am sure that there is more to it than that but I didnt go into the details of what happened. I mentioned that a couple on the course I was on managed to conceive after seeing her. I didnt say that only one couple were successful. There were clearly many more otherwise she would have been in business for so many years. It is not total bollocks if couples have trouble in conceiving and manage the pregnancy after seeing her. Again, do you know how much IVF costs? I cant provide facts and figures for you just as I cant tell you how many people my GP healed or failed to heal this month.
Bloody hell, what is your problem? You dont have to spend much time with people to know if they are techically savvy or not. Just look at Barry! Many of us older people struggle with PCs and technology. Yes perhaps she was sneaking off in the middle of the night to reserach stuff on the internet but how she was going to do that when she only had a first name to work with I dont know. I just Googled brain tumours and guess what, not one of the images came up as the one I described earlier that you dismiised as normal. I think if you know someone for 5 or 6 years you know whether they are techo savvy or not.
The police do use “woo stuff.” They have used it in the Madeleine McCann case. They have used it in many cases. Do some reserach. There is plenty of evidence out there.
Successful business are built up by providing a good service. If she was getting constant negative reactions she would soon stop getting referrels. I am not sure how you can make such judgements against someone you have never met. Oh, she works in the woo peddler industry so she must be a con. She gets business because she is good at what she does. You may think she is a con artist, clearly many people dont and are happy with her service.
As for your last paragraph, you really need to be less blinkered. I have sent a number of friends to see her. All she has known about them is their first name. Quite often that is the only info she has had before she has met them. She would have to be some really shit hot computer whizz to delve into their backgrounds using a first name. Not one person has come back and said that it was bollocks and a waste of time. I saw her for about 5 or 6 years and she managed to sort out problems for me that the NHS couldnt. So who has been conned? If you pay for a service and you are happy with that service, how have you been conned? She doesnt sell herself as a medium. She runs a detox centre and works mainly as a counsellor. She will give a reading if you ask but you wont find her peddling her woo on the internet.
You sound like you dont know too much about “woo?” Start by reading about the energy centres of the body, the chakras. This knowledge has been around for thousands of years and will make a good start on your enlightenment into the World Of Woo
I have tried to help those who are paying money to these twats for nothing more than bullshit, but as sadly too frequently happens, the woo peddlers are smart and prep their ‘clients’ well- knowing their case is often reinforced by people who really should know better - They love to play the ‘ambiguity’ card as this attracts some from scientific circles to concur that what is unknown should not be dismissed (indeed a true scientific perspectic)
BUT (and its sad to see here in some of your posts), what the woo peddlers and this small group of ‘supportive’ scientists fail to grasp (or they cleverly avoid clarifying) is that science is NOT about inventing an answer, and then not testing it… ever… but immediately making money from it and spreading it as the ‘not fully understood’ but correct answer’. Science is about testing multiple hypotheses until one or two showmost promise and then developing theories around them. It IS open to all things, just not nonsense that has never been put to any test and never will be.
If it was ‘harmless’ like Santa or the tooth fairy, I would simply laugh at the gullable. But its not harmless - people are conned, have their emotions, hearts and minds fucked with by people who dont give a fuck yet pretend to care, and in worse cases endup in greater pain and with more advanced diseases because they seek woo peddlers for treatments…
By leaving the door ajar with ambiguity, who leave it open for this exploitation. But hey fuck it, what do I care its not my money…
I am sure that there is more to it than that but I didnt go into the details of what happened. I mentioned that a couple on the course I was on managed to conceive after seeing her. I didnt say that only one couple were successful. There were clearly many more otherwise she would have been in business for so many years. It is not total bollocks if couples have trouble in conceiving and manage the pregnancy after seeing her. Again, do you know how much IVF costs? I cant provide facts and figures for you just as I cant tell you how many people my GP healed or failed to heal this month.
_It depends, some NHS regions offer a single go for free, others charge around £3k or upto £5k+ if egg donation is needed etc. BUT you will NOT be paying this until after it has been confirmed you can not conceive naturally. you will get these tests for free in most areas so if its a case of anxiety or stress, you will get counselling also for free and this reolvesmany cases. _
ALSO each fertility centre will publsih its success rtaes which are around 20% - so patient sknow ALL the risks and costs and potential success rate and can make informed decisions.
I bet your woo peddler doen not publish her scientifically validated data?
_And you keep pusghing out teh classic woo line ‘‘There were clearly many more otherwise she would have been in business for so many years’’ - yes she would because its easy to stay in this business… _
Bloody hell, what is your problem? You dont have to spend much time with people to know if they are techically savvy or not. Just look at Barry! Many of us older people struggle with PCs and technology. Yes perhaps she was sneaking off in the middle of the night to reserach stuff on the internet but how she was going to do that when she only had a first name to work with I dont know. I just Googled brain tumours and guess what, not one of the images came up as the one I described earlier that you dismiised as normal. I think if you know someone for 5 or 6 years you know whether they are techo savvy or not.
I could convince you in five minutes that I dont know how to use a computer - and given my bad typing, woudl you believ me if I told you I was diagnosed with dyslexia in 1996, 3 years AFTER i graduated?
The police do use “woo stuff.” They have used it in the Madeleine McCann case. They have used it in many cases. Do some reserach. There is plenty of evidence out there.
Did you you call them up and check this person out? and the police dont use them - the woo peddlers go in and offer their services and are usualy told to fuck off - And clearly they are so good tehy solved teh Mccann case…
Successful business are built up by providing a good service. If she was getting constant negative reactions she would soon stop getting referrels. I am not sure how you can make such judgements against someone you have never met. Oh, she works in the woo peddler industry so she must be a con. She gets business because she is good at what she does. You may think she is a con artist, clearly many people dont and are happy with her service.
I cant believe you dont see it - You get referals from people like you, convinced they have helped you and you pass it on becaus eof a small placebo effect… Ibet there are more who have not been helped
As for your last paragraph, you really need to be less blinkered. I have sent a number of friends to see her. All she has known about them is their first name. Quite often that is the only info she has had before she has met them. She would have to be some really shit hot computer whizz to delve into their backgrounds using a first name. Not one person has come back and said that it was bollocks and a waste of time. I saw her for about 5 or 6 years and she managed to sort out problems for me that the NHS couldnt. So who has been conned? If you pay for a service and you are happy with that service, how have you been conned? She doesnt sell herself as a medium. She runs a detox centre and works mainly as a counsellor. She will give a reading if you ask but you wont find her peddling her woo on the internet.
_ **She seems to be everything you need,. great that you are not conned… but agian you trot out same nonsense ’ all she knew was tehre first name’ how do you know that is all she knew.I told you they do their homework on EVERY client and like magicians you will never ever know how or what they have done in teh background. At least you now admit you are paying for it… ** _
You sound like you dont know too much about “woo?” Start by reading about the energy centres of the body, the chakras. This knowledge has been around for thousands of years and will make a good start on your enlightenment into the World Of Woo
… if you want to throw your money at these eveil fuckers, go ahead, but a word of advice - if you get them to get rid of certain pains (via placebo) please at least go and get it checked out properly as well. There are plenty of very sad cases that she wont tell you about where woo peddlers have stopped folks seeking tests when they needed them… so their tumours were only discovered when there was fuck all left to do… had they had tests when they first had the pain, they would still be walking around today. So please at least go get that ‘second opinion’ if ever you get something new.
Yeah, I think I know what bias means, thanks (attempted condescension much?). I believe I used it perfectly legitimately in this case. Now I’m definitely out.
NOt sure you ahve avctually added anything as yet anyway sonot much of a loss to the discussion if all you keep repeating is that someone is biassed or closed minded - you have not presented any case /evidence scientific or otherwie to support your opinion, you just keep pooping in to restate that you are out… which seems a liitle bit odd…
I dont know if the “WP” (for short) publishes her figures but as she is trading partly as a fertility clinic I would imagine that it is mandatory. She never profrssed to have 100% success rate and I doubt if we would have a problem publishing figures.
No it is not easy to stay in the business. You are reliant on new clients. If you are rubbish you client base will soon dry up.
What has graduation got to do with dyslexia? I know she doesnt use email and I know that she leaves the PC work to others. Even if she were highly proficient on the PC she isnt going to get very far with a first name is she?
No I didnt. The police do use mediums. Some I believe have been successful. So what if they werent successful in the McCann case? If they were 100% successful the police would get rid of all of their detectives and just employ mediums.
I am not “convinced”, I have been helped. If anyone who is referred by me or anyone else isnt happy then I am sure the person wouldnt go back again. I have not had anything but postive feedback. More gullible twats I suppose.
She is not everything I need. She was very helpful when I needed held that I wasnt getting from the NHS or conventional medicine and it worked for me. If it was the placebo effect who knows, but it worked for me so what is the problem? You cant do homework on people without information. If you only have a christian name and an appointment date, good luck with your research!
I havent seen her for some time now but I know that she isnt irresponsible enough not to advise someone to see a GP if that is what was needed. Most of her clients go to her after they have been frustrated by the NHS as far as I know. You really have a low opinion if you think that everyone is out to rip you off and everyone who goes to see someone “off piste” is foolish enough not to also seek advice from their GPs.
Whilst trying to work out what the fuck a “woo peddlar” is I found this on Wiki
Dr. Deepak K. Chopra (born 1947) is the deepest most visible public proponent of mind-body woo, quantum woo, and alternative medicine (specifically Ayurvedic medicine). He is a writer of New Age self-help spiritual books that say things like “look around you[note 1] at the beauty of the Earth” and “look into the beauty of yourself”. Chopra sells Ayurvedic medicine, which is traditional Indian medicine filtered through the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and mixed with “physics” in order to treat the dangerously low levels of money in Chopra’s wallet
I dont know if the “WP” (for short) publishes her figures but as she is trading partly as a fertility clinic I would imagine that it is mandatory. She never profrssed to have 100% success rate and I doubt if we would have a problem publishing figures.
Haha - this is classic, so she is a doctor and fertility expert now as well as chanelling all sorts of stuff,…you could not make it up and yes you are right, if she were a fertility clinic she would need to, but ask her for her certification …
No it is not easy to stay in the business. You are reliant on new clients. If you are rubbish you client base will soon dry up.
What has graduation got to do with dyslexia? I know she doesnt use email and I know that she leaves the PC work to others. Even if she were highly proficient on the PC she isnt going to get very far with a first name is she?
_ **YOU suggested she had told you she was dyslexic and could not use a computer - I was merely suggesting that how can you tell she is telling the truth? - People with dyslexia have no problem in researching, reading writing etc which is why I mentioned being diagnosed after graduation in 1996… you are extremely naive if you think she will only have a first name… she TELLS you she only has a first name ** _
No I didnt. The police do use mediums. Some I believe have been successful. So what if they werent successful in the McCann case? If they were 100% successful the police would get rid of all of their detectives and just employ mediums.
You brought up the McCann case as an example - odd that its ‘high profile’ but ‘not successful’ all the time - can you give me an example where it has been? a REAL example?
I am not “convinced”, I have been helped. If anyone who is referred by me or anyone else isnt happy then I am sure the person wouldnt go back again. I have not had anything but postive feedback. More gullible twats I suppose.
You said it…
She is not everything I need. She was very helpful when I needed held that I wasnt getting from the NHS or conventional medicine and it worked for me. If it was the placebo effect who knows, but it worked for me so what is the problem? You cant do homework on people without information. If you only have a christian name and an appointment date, good luck with your research!
You assume all she has is a first name - she HAS more and alot more before clients are treated - you will need to trust me on this, because I am no magician and dont know all the tricks but they will always be one step ahead of you to ensure it looks all woo ‘‘how could she possibly know that’’ are the Woo gospel - its how they hook folk, but they know it through doing their research…
I havent seen her for some time now but I know that she isnt irresponsible enough not to advise someone to see a GP if that is what was needed. Most of her clients go to her after they have been frustrated by the NHS as far as I know. You really have a low opinion if you think that everyone is out to rip you off and everyone who goes to see someone “off piste” is foolish enough not to also seek advice from their GPs.
Dont read things into my posts that are not there, I DOINT have a low opinion of everyone thinking they will rip me off. I KNOW that woo peddlers WILL rip you off because that is what they do - not everyone, Woo peddlers
Sadly some people are foolish enough to avoid seeking proper tests and medical help when they should…
