EU - In or Out? The big vote 23rd June 2016

News and current events
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee

Is it not also a cop out walking away from something that is broken, rather than being instrumental in the fix? Some would suggest it would not even be that broken, had we actually given a fuck and embraced it as a true member… its that what pisses me off most with the anti EU mantra - the constant sniping of how shit it is, without ever having done anything about it… just whinging about the cost, taking back rebates and being unengaged, brussels this…

All well and true that we should be on the inside fighting our corner and pressing for change but there is one big problem, the French and the Germans. They have control of the reigns of the EU and they do not want to relinqiuish them. The French and Germans have always hated the English and they hold no truc with what we want.

In reality we’re a minor country compared to those 2 so why should we really have a say?

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Originally posted by @BTripz

All well and true that we should be on the inside fighting our corner and pressing for change but there is one big problem, the French and the Germans. They have control of the reigns of the EU and they do not want to relinqiuish them. The French and Germans have always hated the English and they hold no truc with what we want.

In reality we’re a minor country compared to those 2 so why should we really have a say?

How can we be a “minor country” in the EU, yet expect to be a big player on our own?

I don’t disagree the point, I think we aren’t the big shots many think we are. But the extension to that being, “well, when we are out on our own we’ll be able to to deals better for us” doesn’t really add up to me.

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Because on our own we get to set the agenda, in the EU the agenda is driven by the French and Germans and no one really gets a say otherwise. Oh we have a veto but even that is in danger of being removed.

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There may be some truth to that, bit still, I don’t see how advantageous that is when weighed up against the fact we shift from being part of a market of 500m as opposed to 60-70m.

Even if we accept that France and Germany are still going to be negoatiating what is best for them, that will still apply to the larger market, which is in turn better for all of the members.

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i don’t want to pay for two governments, so one of them has to go for me. I’ve looked at it, and I think I prefer to keep the EU government and get rid of the UK one. Is that vote IN or vote OUT?

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I dunno if I worded that v well. Basically, I’m not totally sold on the idea that being able to negotiate on our own = better deals.

As I’ve said for the past couple of pages, I want to see what sort of deals we would be able to get, and what leaving would actually mean. Which no one seems to be able to show - other than “well it used to be alright, so it’ll be alright now”.

FWIW I’ve never said we couldn’t manage on our own, or that leaving would apocalyptic, I just don’t think it will benefit us overall. I still maintain that wanting some info on what out will look like, is a sensible position.

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I don’t know @KRG we still seem to pay over the odds for things compared to our Euro cousins so I can’t really see that changing a lot.

Oops, I’ve just mirrored what you said in your post!!

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I don’t think anyone can tell you the answers to that one KRG because no one will know them until Brexit happens. Oh we could probably put feelers out and get quotes and stuff but until it is actually needed who knows.

But saying that would markets really be so stupid as to lose ~70m customers by pricing themselves out?

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So, I’ve been so undecided in general on this, but one thing has swayed me towards “in”.

One of my friends, who is English, lives in France with his French wife and French child. If we leave the EU there is a chance that he will not be able to live with his wife and kid.

That’s all it takes for some of us.

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selfish

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Then he should get married, sorted…

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He is married, makes no difference. He’d still have to apply for a Visa, which is not a permanent solution.

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In all honestly, I have very little understanding of the intricacies of how the pricing of things works. I’d be lying if I said I knew absolutely.

My impression is that it is a little more complex than this. There’s a huge number of other factors that effect the price of things, other than that I’d say.

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there was a Documentary on BBC2 bout it last night, and I watched at least 10 mins of it, so I am prob Expert now if anyone needs advice.

Tony Blair didn’t come off v.well I didn’t think. I would have said he was the best Prime Minister of my Lifetime, and I imagine most ppl would agree, but it did make out like he Ballsed things up a bit, but he wasn’t v.manly about it. He was like, yeah, alright, I did only think 13,000 polish bros would come over, but I’m not sorry that we ended up with 1.8 million, cos they do good building work or whatever. It sounded bit suss tbh.

I think I am revise my list so my list of Best Prime Ministers In Lifetime is:

#1: David Cameron

#2: Tony Blair

#3: John Major (I thought he was Quite Good in the Documentary)

#4: Margaret Thatcher

#5: Gordon Brown

Would you bros agree with this List?

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Seriously, I’d be surprised if that was the case!!!

Edit :- Just had a quick google and, as with everything French, it is as clear as mud. I think this article clears it up somewhat and I don’t think he’ll have any problems (as long as he has a good working knowledge of the French language)

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Well that is understandable, to a degree. However, I don’t think that negates my point.

Voting to leave or remain is a big decision. If no one can answer some basic questions about what a post-leave UK would look like or operate, painting it as anything other than a gamble is disingenuous.

It’s a perfectly legitimate view to want to have information. It’s also legitimate to want answers, or some attempt at answers to the big questions.

What will our trade agreements be with, and who?

How do we anticipate this will go? How will we achieve goals such as Free trade, with no movement of people, no contributions etc.

What will happen to EU citizens that are already here?

What will movement/work options for us in EU be like?

Just dismissing these things, as pap keeps doing just isn’t going to cut it.

Calling it all project fear is weak as. If you accept that there will be pro’s and con’s, winners and losers whatever the decision - then wanting to know who will win/lose in either scenario seems sensible to me. I cannot comprehend how that can be seen as controversial.

Hysterically wailing about how negative someone is being if there is the suggestion that some things will suffer, is daft. I want the information. I want to know what the negative effects will be, of staying and leaving. I want to know the positive effects of both too.

My despair comes from Remain saying this bad will thing happen and Leave just outright dismissing it as Fear. Whilst Leave want me to believe everything will just be fine, it will all be swimming and everything will be better and everydeal we get will be better and everyone will be queueing round the block to make deals with us. I don’t see how that can be true. I want something to back that up.

You can call me and some of my views on here fanciful or utopian (I’ve admitted as much myself), but simply waving away anything that could be perceived as a negative and just saying no everything will be better seems equally as daft.

It’s effectively, listen to us everything will be better. That’s not a route I’m really willing to go.

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If they knew exactly what it would be like after Referendum, then Dave Cameron would prob be able to make the decision for himself, and wouldn’t have to get me in to figure it out for him.

I like it as it stands; you can vote for everything to be Same, or you can vote for everything to be Different. Maybe it will be Better, maybe it will be Worse. That is the Gamble, and that is what makes it Fun. I.e. if you was playing Blackjack and everyone was allowed to see what the next card is before they place their bets + stick or twist it would be less Fun srs

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Originally posted by @KRG

It’s effectively, listen to us everything will be better. That’s not a route I’m really willing to go.

And fair dos to you, I’ve just read a book called Containment (sci-fi shit as Bearsy would probably call it) and one of the (subtle) messages in the book is “Quesiton everything!”

I’m older than you so remember a pre-EU UK so I base my thinking on what that was like and would hope/think that things would be much the same. However I’m not naive enough to accept Leave’s message at face value and am sceptical of Remain’s scare mongering which, whether you accept it or not, seems to me what their campaign is based on.

What I would say is that I don’t like the way the EU has grown from the common market and the power that the unelected have over us and that is one of the major reasons why I would quite happily say good bye to the EU. There are other reasons too.

I can understand your fears about freedom of movement and working abroad but that happened pre-EU, maybe with more restrictions, so there’s no reason why it shouldn’t again.

As Bearsy puts it, there will be winners and losers whatever the result. For me though not-knowing the future is not a good enough reason to keep the status-quo.

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Why not be in a global market as opposed to an EU one? It’s distinctly less business like as we have to go through Brussels.

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My brother in law lives there happily enough, there can be no change in the current system, status quo for people living abroad and if skilled no dramas.