EU - In or Out? The big vote 23rd June 2016

News and current events
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Most farmers are in the pockets of landowners and will keep land until they say so, if a hunt goes through there it will never get sold.
The left and right holding hands, one to sell our sovereignty further more for a political experiment whilst the right do it for big business and cheaper labour.

You couldn’t make it up, a union of naivety, selfishness and a hatred of this land.

I’d rather lose money and gain sovereignty, what has happened to our Country and place we reside when we would sell everything to be a servant?

More and more people are waking up though.

The EU is dead either way.

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Originally posted by @pap

I can’t believe it’s even being used as a plus point for Remain. If this were not a union of nations, and were instead a family, then certain politicians on both sides of the Channel are essentially threatening us with disownment and abandonment if we fancy doing our own thing. That would be correctly described as an abuse of a relationship in a family, so I don’t know why it’s suddenly so acceptable when 65 million are given the same stern words.

I’m not really sold on that analogy.

I see it more as a team, in theory, trying to pull together and one sod umming and ahhing over whether they want to be part of that team. Of course the others are going to get fed up with them.

Anyway, as you like to be so dismissive of all my points. Saying well, this was like this in '91 or whatever is still not a great argument. Is the world we are in now the same as it was then?

The world is far more globalised now than it was then. Additionally, now, unlike then, we won’t be on the doorstep of a massive trading block that we’ve just decided we want out of.

It’s also an argument that falls down in other resects. Namely, basically anyone under 30/35 has no comprehension of what this would look like. 'Scuse me pal, but considering the shit older generations have been reigning down on us - I’m no so inclined to just believe it will all be ok because you said so. As I said above, which you have outright dismissed, there is no explanation of what this would look like. Other than bluster, and unrealistic expectations with zero precedent in the real world.

It’s daft to think we can just waltz out and keep whatever we want.

I see a spokesman for Leave has reiterated their stance that they want “Free trade with no freedom of movement, no budget contributions & no supremacy of EU law”.

That sounds totally plausible.

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Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

We haven’t farmed for years, lets get that straight right away.

So farmers that do exist should just ignore what is best for them? Actually don’t answer, I’m not interested.

Movement of people, people have always been allowed to move around, skilled labour will always be needed everywhere.

Your argument is weak.

Yeah Barry, if I ever want advice on the strength of an argument you are about as far down the list as it can get.

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I’m not insulted, but I do disagree. Can’t win, one minute of overly gloomy and need to cheer up, now it’s all rose tinted specs :lou_wink:

But, I doubt the ability of humans to do good things/the right thing when there is an easy out.

Nation states are, as I keep bloody saying, arbitary lines drawn on rocks. The reason for them is, and has always been for the richest in society to horde what they have away from others.

I think the same is true today. The richest nations, or those blessed with the most natural resources close off their borders and look inwardly. Fuck everyone else, they aren’t our problem. Which makes it easier to kick the can around to someone else.

Perhaps, if we weren’t all so divided up we could take a broader view of things. It wouldn’t be “look at these people from that lump of rock wanting to come to our lump of rock and mess everything up - they aren’t our problem”, perhaps we could work together, as people, human fucking beings of the same species not pitting ourselves against each other and looking over the fence enviously at what next door have or have not got.

As I said, yeah, I am aware this is utopian. But don’t tell me that nation states are some perfect, organic or natural entity. They cause just as much problems themselves.

And again, I reject it is utopian to take this stance - and at the same time saying Brexit is going to be a magic cure that fixes everything, and we will just leave and take all the bits we want and get rid of the bits we don’t. World don’t work like that.

Ultimately, the reason I take the above stance, which links to my EU support is that we can achieve more pulling together than on our own.

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It is utopian and crap, go out and travel and you’ll change.

Its a lovely World without borders but also bollocks, do you think Nations have no national interest?
This is why the EU fails and will continue to fail, why can’t we be a global trading community?
The EU is insular, outdated, trade union hating and undemocratic.

Read some books and travel lad.

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Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez

It is utopian and crap, go out and travel and you’ll change. Its a lovely World without borders but also bollocks, do you think Nations have no national interest? This is why the EU fails and will continue to fail, why can’t we be a global trading community? The EU is insular, outdated, trade union hating and undemocratic. Read some books and travel lad.

Telling me to go and read, when you have clearly demonstrated you are incapable of reading my posts.

I’m not going to get in to a ‘debate’ with you, so swing away.

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Its clear where you stand on the situation but you clearly have no clue to what and why you stand there.

The EU is currently sending refugees to “safe haven” Turkey, its also bullying Greece in to submission.

You want to be a part of this.

The only comeback the innertubes say is

“Its not perfect but”

Had that for years, had enough and so have the people of the EU, its great to se as well, I’m off to Majorca in a few months and I can tell you they hate the EU.

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My point about 1991 is that it was twenty five years ago, and that many, including myself, can remember Britain trading perfectly well with its European partners without all of the legislation that was introduced post-Maastricht. It isn’t that long ago and the mechanics of the world really don’t change that much over time, not much at all over a quarter of a century. If you can produce something worth buying, people will buy it. Doesn’t matter if it’s on the Silk Roads, or inside our outside the EU. The same goes in reverse. If you’ve got money, people will want to sell things to you.

It really is as simple as that. I don’t often find myself in agreement with Michael Gove but when attacking this argument, he asked what, beyond spite, would convince anyone on either side of that arrangement to put barriers in the way of transactions. If they are driven by spite, are these the sort of people we want as friends and partners? At best, this talk of tariffs is a bluff to prevent us from leaving. At worst, it’ll end up being vindication for the people that claimed the EU weren’t that friendly to begin with.

I back us to survive a Brexit. We’ve had broader horizons than this continent for 500 years, give or take. We’ve historically proven that we can also be self-reliant. In a rare moment of First World War study levity, I was amused to learn that the German soldiers were in awe of British Tommies for a particular reason. They’d hear our soldiers laughing just after they kicked the shit out of them and perhaps killed a few. It unnerved them that the British soldiers not only got on with it, but were laughing.

I won’t cry over either result, but Remain are making a poor, mostly doom-laden case which seems particularly ill-suited to the public that it’s aimed at. One attitude present in residents from all parts of this union is that if you tell us we can’t do something, we’re more likely to tell you to fuck off than not do it. :lou_sunglasses:

I love you all for it.

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Because the Germans and Brits have nicely carved it up into little Germany and UK and we all pile over annoying the crap out of the locals? Buying up their properties cheaply so they can have a nice jolly in the sun? Giving a little more context to your comments would help, how do your know they hate the EU? Or is it due to free movement and they have to put up with you visiting?

You are really very condescending towards KRG. Quite frankly I don’t know why anyone bothers to respond to your posts and I am only going to regret doing so here. It’s quite possible to debate without responding in such a way.

As to the EU debate and both sides. I am now terribly bored of it and we have tedious months of it to come. But then I had my decision some time ago and don’t feel the need to argue it or justify myself to others re my decision. Sometimes we will agree to disagree. So for the record I am remain and that’s the end of that.

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Yeah, down a market stall perhaps. To suggest you can transfer the to international markets is as daft as the attempts to equate running a national budget to a household one. Of course it is more complex than that.

Equally, of course the world is massively different to that of '91. Again, it’s daft to suggest otherwise.

Still no attempt to deal with the point that whilst you may remember it, a significant number of people won’t. Wanting to know what the alternative is perfectly legitimate.

That still applies to everything else. I want to know what Brexit mean. Is that so objectionable? Wanting to know what such a decision would actually mean in practice.

And yeah, at this point making that claim about the remain campaign, and not leave is laughable. Both campaigns are all about fear. It’s silly and pathetic but that is where we are. The debate is entirely toxic, with little to no facts readily available to anyone.

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I am going out on a limb here, as from the perspective of a rational decision to stay in or leave…this should not really come into it, but irrationally, yet emotionaly, for me,it does. Namely, the symbolism. The Farage type, fucking small minded cunt and his ilk, the littleenglander mentatlity, the ignorance and spreading of fear of immigrants and the lies about the numbers and the impact on our country… (no one ever gets worried about the number of white Australians comming here to steal our bar jobs… what about our students getting summer jobs?)

No, the thought of those ignorant, often bigotted smug cunts winning out, whatever the real merits of in or out, is too much for me, which is why I am voting stay in, whatever shite comes out of Brussels, or however much we need to dance to Merkel’s tune.

The EU is faulty, fucked and in some respect is born out of economic principles that I find ethically questionable, but despite this, as a symbol of unity and a HUGE fuck you those who breed hate in small tiny stealthy ways…through suspicion, through fear, that worry about sovereignty as if it even fucking matters…The very fact that its a thorn in the side of fucking Biggots United is good enough for me.

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I disagree, and so have most have the pundits, and for that matter, a good deal of the Remain people that have been interviewed on the subject. I’ve honestly got no expectations of honour from UKIP. Nige has managed to constrain himself to arguments of capacity and economics, but I’d be entirely unsurprised if they ran a negative campaign.

In the main, Leave are running a more positive, more aspirational campaign than Remain. It can afford to be - it’s trading on part-fantasy, able to transmit lofty ideas, whether they’re bollocks or not. Remain has the problem of reality to deal with, one that has not reflected kindly on the EU and lances the few positive arguments that Remain can offer, such as working together.

The Syriza government went back and forth to the EU trying to get an affordable debt package. The EU was not interested in working with Greece then, and actively worked against some of the principles it was supposed to uphold. The EU had legitimacy despite the democratic deficit because broadly, when you totted up the good and the bad ledger, it generally came out on the side of the good.

However, tipping points do exist, which is precisely why we’re here in the first place. Granted, much of the friction that has caused this referendum was generated in the bowels of the never-certain Conservative Party and it’s a bloody shame we sent someone with bacon on his mind to negotiate the referendum terms. The prick went out and secured soundbites and permission to implement a couple of punitive policies, not substantive or credible reform, or any sort of guarantee that we’d never see the EU bear its dictatorial teeth again, as it did in Greece.

The choice I have is validate the whole shebang, impoverishing Polish kids with parents that pay into our tax system, or do what I thought I might for a long time, and register some form of dissatisfaction,

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Sorry Pap, cant agree… yes as you suggest there are downsides economically for nations… (the polish kids thing is a bit ‘emotive’, no?) but its the same EU that lets grafters from Romania (my mate Marion), work like no Bitish plumber ever as has to build a better life for his family… so swings and roundabouts for balance pap…

The biggest problem for the UK and the EU, is that we were never truely in it. No committement to lead and direct from within and be a leading driver… always on the outside pissing in, so never getting the full advantage and never being able to prevent the excesses and issues that we are now complaining about… its a bit fucking rich to be honest, complaining about how shit it is and everything that is wrong with it, after spending 40 years being half arsed about it and making demands for rebates, rather than being like France and getting the EU money to be acyually spent on infrastructure projects that benefit communities… Thatcher went on about winning a rebate (to fund her own tax cats) and less about the fact that we did not get the same levels of spending from the EU as a result…

I know I am in a minority with this, but I am honest enough to know that even if I spent 24 hours a day reading every academic and opinion piece from both sides for a fucking year, I would still not have enough information to make a choice based on what is FACTUALLY best for this country, (and I have a fucking big IQ) no matter how much some on here process to know on the subject. Inevitably, you can find data and ‘independent’ publications that support both POVs… anyone who says they will vote based on facts, must have limitless time and the abilty to look at it from every single perspective… from the trades deals for coffee, to farmers grants,… and thousands of issues in between… and then divise a complex validated algorithm to give you the answer… otherwise they are bullshitting and going with their philosphical POV - which is fine, but they should admit it.

My philosphoical point of view is as simple as they come - as mentioned in the previous post.

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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee

No, the thought of those ignorant, often bigotted smug cunts winning out, whatever the real merits of in or out, is too much for me, which is why I am voting stay in, whatever shite comes out of Brussels, or however much we need to dance to Merkel’s tune.

No disrespect, GA - but I think that is a counter-productive and ultimately self-defeating way of going about things.

This is a question that people have been wanting to answer for 40 years, with much more urgency in the past 25. I have no doubt that a Brexit would make some people I would consider unsavoury happy, but i also ask how many choices I cede to decide upon those lines, and whether the feelings of bigoted smug cunts should take primacy in a decision of this magnitude, or let Angela Merkel make decisions afterwards, even it does result in them being temporarily ecstatic.

People are going to have different reasons for voting the way they do. Sovereignty. Stability. Solidarity. Disappointing bigoted cunts is one of the worst reasons, imo. I suspect many of them have carried disappointment along with the bigotry for many years.

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I think you are smart enough to know that the ‘ignorant bigotted cunts’ - is symbolic and maybe a little tongue-in-cheek, but its representative of a broader and more considered philosophical perspective… one that is sadly less ‘descriptive’. Sovereignty is IMHO unimportant. We dance to the US tune with respect to defence, yet no one bats an eyelid. The conductor of our economics is not the EU but the global reality… only 500 years ago we danced to Rome’s tune until they would not grant our king a divorce… and on such whims are nations defined… in another 500 years do you think anyone will care about this or our current sovereignty? no… its all just games in a battle that no one wins long term.

Its the biologist in me always thinking in evolutionary clock terms… we are all the same fucking species and borders and isolation only ever serve to bring out the worst selfish traits… I am alright jack… because we dont have to give 70bil a year to the EU… Do you really think that not pumping that cash, even at that level would make any difference to the people of this country? It would be used to pay off the deficit and then offer tax cuts to those that dont need them… no wonder some tories are behind it…

All simplistic - but the complexity of factually based decisions is beyond all of us if we chose to admit it.

And wiping the smile of the ignorant biggoted cunts is pretty appealing in my book…

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What do the innertubes think of the refugees being sent back to Turkey?

Greece’s bullying at the hands of the Germans?

The changing of a monetary union into a political union, imperial almost in its constant expansion?

About the fast tracking of Turkey in the EU as it is now doing the dirty work for the EU natons?

Don’t come back with a chldish “its not perfect crap” as that is politically innept and weak.

Never forget Labour and the Greens were opposed mainly for the EU as quite rightly then and now they were concerned about lowering wages (has happened in many trades) and conditions. Tony Benn was against it on sovereignty and workers rights, people need to grasp the reality of it, the French humilated us as well when they paraded our refused application in a press conference, do the inners think we cant make it on our own? We’re stronger in? The EU is shrinking in trade and that is a fact, why should we tie ourselves to this when they show no loyalty to Greece, Ireland were refused a valid democratic vote and had to try again.

I hate the ideology of the tories and UKIP but I dont put my domestic party politics into this, vote with your head.

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What about the German comedian locked up for taking the piss out of the Turkish President? Its all crap. People are voting for this, the president of Turkey is a highley dangerous man, wake up people. The EU are sending people back to this “safe place”.

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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee

I think you are smart enough to know that the ‘ignorant bigotted cunts’ - is symbolic and maybe a little tongue-in-cheek, but its representative of a broader and more considered philosophical perspective… one that is sadly less ‘descriptive’. Sovereignty is IMHO unimportant.

As someone that believes people should be true sovereigns, I cannot get on board with the idea of sovereignty as not being hugely important. We already get the piss taken out of us enough for having a Queen as our head of state in some circles. Some people still don’t realise we’ve got some semblance of democracy here.

Sovereignty governs too much, including law and territorial limits, to be considered unimportant.

We dance to the US tune with respect to defence, yet no one bats an eyelid.

That’s not entirely true, is it? I think we’ve had plenty of criticism of the US in the last 15 years and beyond, manifested both in newspaper articles and national demonstrations. I’ve walked through the streets of London with a throng of people calling George Bush a terrorist.

Our politicians have bent over backwards for the US. They’re doing it again now; the US really doesn’t want us to leave the EU. That doesn’t mean that people haven’t been concerned. It just means they’ve been ignored, and besides, two wrongs don’t make a right.

The conductor of our economics is not the EU but the global reality… only 500 years ago we danced to Rome’s tune until they would not grant our king a divorce… and on such whims are nations defined… in another 500 years do you think anyone will care about this or our current sovereignty? no… its all just games in a battle that no one wins long term.

Which sorta coincided with the beginning one of our most successful periods in history…

Following the initial fuckery over who got Henry VIII’s throne, of course.

Its the biologist in me always thinking in evolutionary clock terms… we are all the same fucking species and borders and isolation only ever serve to bring out the worst selfish traits… I am alright jack… because we dont have to give 70bil a year to the EU… Do you really think that not pumping that cash, even at that level would make any difference to the people of this country? It would be used to pay off the deficit and then offer tax cuts to those that dont need them… no wonder some tories are behind it…

All simplistic - but the complexity of factually based decisions is beyond all of us if we chose to admit it.

It’s not simple. Even the case you present here isn’t simple.

The truth is that the UK is going to benefit and lose from a Brexit, just as it’ll benefit and lose by staying in.

With uncertainty in either outcome, I would sooner be in charge of our own destiny. EU; all fun and games until the next financial crisis.

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I dont have the time or energy to gather enough the information, digest, analyse, and conclude. I suspect there are many in the same boat. So it comes down to some internal rationale. For me its drven by the fact that ultimately it does NOT matter, only to ourselves if we view it from a 30-40 perspective… which means pish. The insignificance of that timescale. But as a decision needs to be made, I would rather we were at the heart of it.

Is it not also a cop out walking away from something that is broken, rather than being instrumental in the fix? Some would suggest it would not even be that broken, had we actually given a fuck and embraced it as a true member… its that what pisses me off most with the anti EU mantra - the constant sniping of how shit it is, without ever having done anything about it… just whinging about the cost, taking back rebates and being unengaged, brussels this…

So to those who go on and on and on about how its ‘failed’ I suggest that for something to have failed, you first have to have given it a proper chance, and that means full committment, not dipping your toe in. Its like concluding that humans cant swim, after paddling a bit and your feet getting too cold.

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Yeah this is still bollocks though.

I posted on this thread (somewhere, too lazy to scroll back through) the article where Farage was saying if we stay in we will have roving gangs of rapist immigrants.

Don’t try and whitewash the fear campaign Out are running. Yes, Remain are doing it as well. I’m not questioning that, but to say it is one sided is utter twaddle.

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