I think the answer you’re looking for is education, hope (lack of) and poverty.
I’ll ignore the Millwall bit but are you saying they are 500 years behind us in religious thought?
I agree.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
I think the answer you’re looking for is education, hope (lack of) and poverty. I’ll ignore the Millwall bit but are you saying they are 500 years behind us in religious thought? I agree.
Education in Islam is a pillar of society. The great scholars were all Islamic while Europe lived in the Dark Ages.
I lectured regularly at Universities in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Cairo.
I get your point, and yes until the late 60’s this region was still greatly divided between the great civilisations of what was Greater Egypt, Iraq and Iran and the Nomads of the Gulf States.
That is a huge part of the black & white good v bad view of the “West” Education of disenfranchised minorities in the UK and other countries can be viewed as being extremely poor against that of the great Cities of Islam. But then again the chances for an Education for a child born in the farm belts of Syria or the Nile Valley would have been far worse.
Generalisations and pigeon holes are impossible. Therefore Western Politicians have ignored the issue. You cannot solve the problems of the Middle East in a sounbite or in Spin. Today’s IS is yesterdays’s Black September, all impossible scenarios to resolve.
The only way forward to to simply start to understand the root causes, IS is due to Bush & Blair is a great soundbite, but Extremism goes back way further here.
I’m not an Israel basher but they have been one consistent player for the past 60+ years and you don’t need to read Sun Tzu to understand a core assumption that they would prefer to be surrounded by broken states rather than strong independent ones.
After that everything becomes an opinion and they’re like assholes
And is their Relgious thought 500 years behind or ahead of ours?
Watched any weirdo Baptist Preachers in the past 20 years?
Is this a Middle East issue or a religious one? Or a MIddle Eastern Islamic issue?
The fundamentalist Christian preachers and the like are laughed out of town and no one reacts, as I say we are far more mature and open in our societies, many don’t wnat to believe that but its true, we are more accountable and democratic, whether democracy works is another issue altoghether.
Has the Islamic World ever been tolerant?
Tolerant to modern Western ideals?
Tolerance isn’t open closing the shutters and ignoring it either (we have done that with multiculturalism, immigration and many others things but that is aother debate) its about accepting the basic human rights and values.
Are we (the Western World) compatible with adherants of the Islamic faith? Can we challenge them the same way we have challenge Christian mentalities?
And I agree with the Israel example, they have a demographic timebomb to worry about as well.
I find Barry’s concerns about fanaticism rather difficult to reconcile with his presumed support for Donald Trump, who is using his own kind of extremely simplistic fanaticism to arouse large sections of the American electorate. What else would you call the ongoing trolling of Facebook by groups like Britain First? These are groups that spout easily disprovable bile, so why do so many people spew it up in the form of a share? Britain First is an extreme; there are loads of different versions of the same meme, whether it’s bollocks about how much ex-soldiers get when _asylum seekers _get this or pensioners losing out (of all things) because of some other.
In the city we both live in, we’ve had recent visits from a group of far right fanatics, so quite why Barry is keen to associate the issue of fanaticism with Islam is beyond me.
Ah the master of deflection of debate Colonel Pap.
Pap lets deal with what I wrote not one of your yet again Johnny Cochran’s Chewbacca defence deviations.
Put your concerns on another page and lets deal with the relevance of what was posted by myself and Phil, don’t derail if you don’t like.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Ah the master of deflection of debate Colonel Pap. Pap lets deal with what I wrote not one of your yet again Johnny Cochran’s Chewbacca defence deviations. Put your concerns on another page and lets deal with the relevance of what was posted by myself and Phil, don’t derail if you don’t like.
Barry darling, I am pulling you up on points that you made yourself, the ones about not understanding why there seems to be such disproportionate fanaticism in Islam. It’s my view that you’ve got blinkers on when it comes to recognising it. Phil banged out some pretty good examples of milder forms of fanaticism, but even so, many of those with no link to religion (Millwall, and football fandom of a certain age in general) have a link to violence.
If there’s anyone that’s avoiding discussion of the issues, it’s Field Marshal Sanchez with his phantom battlefield promotions.
Football violence to religious fanaticism?
Pap my angel lets stick with the points at hand and not your swipes at the Western World and the nation you live in, its tiresome, boring and oh so early 1980’s.
The point you’re missing is that people were moved to violence no matter what their cause, or how trivial they seem in comparison. The problem with such one-sided beliefs is that all things become justifiable. We’re seeing it with Trump’s campaign, by far the most marked by violence in living memory. We see it in Conservative policy, with the fanatical belief in Osborne’s financial targets, borrowing limits or that families on benefits should never get more than the cap, which has caused all kinds of problems along the line.
I appreciate that you’ve a limited definition of the concept. For me, the sort of fanaticism we’re talking about is defined as a strongly-held belief that leads to harmful action. As defined, it’s bloody everywhere, whether the blinkers let you see it or not.
Still the Chewbacca defence policy, Cleric Pap, I’m not the one blinkered old chap for I am very open minded to all, women, children, people of faith, of no faith, colour, sexual orientation etc etc. I don’t defend others with a race to the bottom defence, I have the bollocks to condemn all, you don’t, I wonder of your better half knows of silent advocacy of this? Are you honestly comparing Trump to ISIS?
Come on Pap you are better than that, they are both bad but one is worse, when an example of a lack of tolerance concerning the Mulsim faith why do you feel the need to find a Western comparison no matter how tenuous? Its poor form, did ISIS have an open door policy on communication?
So in short Mullah Pap grow a set, stop comparing or take your family there and live in democratic harmony? That wont happen though will it?
Why don’t you buld a minaret in Norris Green for solidarity?
In short you can’t bring yourself to condemn anything in the Middle East without condemning the West, thats chilidsh, ridculous and simply not true.
Still the Chewbacca defence policy, Cleric Pap, I’m not the one blinkered old chap for I am very open minded to all, women, children, people of faith, of no faith, colour, sexual orientation etc etc.
I don’t defend others with a race to the bottom defence, I have the bollocks to condemn all, you don’t, I wonder of your better half knows of silent advocacy of this?
Are you honestly comparing Trump to ISIS?
Come on Pap you are beter than that, they are both bad but one is worse, when an example of a lack of tolerance concerning the Mulsim faith why do you feel the need to find a Western comparison no matter how tenuous?
Its poor form, did ISIS have an open door policy on communication?
So in short Mullah Pap grow a set, stop comparing or take your family there and live in democratic harmony?
That wont happen though will it?
Why don’t you buld a minaret in Norris Green for solidarity?
Care to comment on the Lahore bombings Pap?
Dear Barry.
Yes Islam has been EXTREMELY tolerant of ALL other relgions, it respects their cultures and their “festivals”.
Next totally wrong remark please?
Or could you PLEASE stop being so stupid as to fall into the “Generalisation Trap”
I won’t post a list here, but I will simply draw your attention to the victims of the Taliban attack yesterday and ask you what Religion were they? What were they Celebrating? How many years had that been a tradition? and what Religion Tolerated that?
Or I could point you to a Yahoo Maps reference of our “Church Soukh”, list the number of buildings, the number of different religions who worship there, who helped to fund the building of those facilities? what Nationality the Traffic Police are who turn up every weekend to help control the massive traffic jams that the crowds cause.
Or tell you about the Monastery I visited on the outskirts of Damascus where I saw a Muslim Woman reduced to tears and praying after she had seen the “Icon” or “Miracle” of the Virgin Mary, a Monastery that Bashar’s Islamic Troops fought so hard to defend against the Western backed “Opposition” who had already destroyed a number of Christian Symbols and places of Pilgrimage.
Please debate I and others enjoy it. But do not spout pure lies - you are wiser and better than that
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Sorry have I missed something here, yesterdays bombings have been attributed to womens rights and the new laws being opposed by many factions? Easter is just a bonus, this happens also at Valentine days as well.
That generalisation was given by the Primer Minister Shariff so take up issue with him Phil.
And as if by magic the Chewbacca defence by Cochran on BBC2, a simply stunning but of defence work but that was a one time trick, have people been convicted after others have tried this? Who knows.
Who knows indeed.
what is a chewbacca defense pls?
Just to play down the fear factor Sky runs its independent coverage under the subtle name of
Brussels - Terror Central.
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Originally posted by @Bearsy
what is a chewbacca defense pls?
Never play chess-like games against a wookie.
And if you do?
“Let the wookie win.”
Originally posted by @Bearsy
what is a chewbacca defense pls?
In short it means you deviate so far from the course of what was stated the point gets lost.
It worked.