I genuinely don’t know which way to go on this and I don’t think I will on June 24th.
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Problem is that UK government is no different in this regard.
I’ve yet to be introduced to any currently existing (in practise) form of government that is. 
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
So in short I am an arsehole but one that is correct, my views on Europe are transparent, they hurt the worker and abuse their rights, tories on here use is at as a guise for free trade when its code for cheap labour. We need an honest debate not snide name calling,
This is a constant refrain of yours on this subject, along with comments about the free market and those who champion it (Blair, Cameron, Clegg, etc.). Has it really never occurred to you that the great majority of those lining up to take Britain out of the EU (Farage, Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith, Grayling, etc. etc.) are at least as wedded to free market ideals - including cheap and avaiable labour, ease of hiring and firing and de-regulation of labour markets - as any of those who you disparage?
The loudest voices by far on the anti-EU front are those on the right. What is it that they really don’t like about the EU? In a word, regulation. Regulation of the labour market, regulation of industry, any regulation that goes against their free-market views. Do you think that a UK governed by the like of Farage or Johnson would implement policies giving workers better conditions and greater rights? Really?
I’ve said this before - you need to be wary of your bedfellows. Back in 1975, some on the left who opposed Britain’s EEC membership ahred platforms with the likes of the National Front, and were roundly and rightly condemned for doing so. You run exactly the same risk when you display such approbation for Farage (“Our Nige” apparently) and others of his ilk.
You may well have entirely different reasons to these for opposing our membership of the EU. In which case, present that case - don’t heap adulation on those whose reasons for leaving are (from what you tell us) diametrically opposed to yours.
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He’s part of the Establishment – therefore I wouldn’t put it past him. 
I remember when the Greens used to be against Nuclear power, but now they’re more open, given the threat of fossil fuels and climate change. I remember them being against the EU because of the power it gave to the TNCs of the world. Back then I was with them, that the EU as a trade bloc would simply hand power over to the multinationals but that has happened now. So when you say the main people against the EU are on the right, that’s not strictly true. The damage is done now and we live in a world so embroiled in capitalism that even the opposition come at it a point of reluctant acceptance.
‘Hurt the worker Barry’?
Our French Colleagues are signed up the EU time directive… and work reaosnable hours, have a good work/life balance, and have good protection/rights compared to us in UK. Here the tories signed these workers rights away and we end up with stupid hours and minimal rights and protection.
The Tory Government has been spouting the same bollox for years that this ‘freedom’ to exploit workers makes us more competitive and attractive to investors… N,o it makes us more attractive to companies who are happy to exploit workers…
One of the reasons so many in the UK dont see any value in EU membership is because we are only ever exposed to its problems or its inefficiencies … we have never had the opportunity to experience the benefits…
My enemy’s enemy is my firend.
Trust me if you want to discuss the European Working Time Directive we can, you do realise thise we put in more than we get out?
The EU was/is a mercantile project to subjecate the masses thinking/duping it was righton and clever thing to do regardless of womean rights.homosexuals rights and minorities and many others,
Yes, there’s a lot of truth in that. Back at the time of the previous referendum, large swathes of the left were opposed to the EEC, as they saw it (correctly in my view) as somehting that strengthened the hand of employers and big business. The main right-wing opposition to the EEC came from the likes of the National Front and (I think, though I could be wrong) Enoch Powell. So yes, oppostion at that time was mostly from the left.
So what’s changed? Well, the entire political landscape for starters. Since 1979 this country, along with many if not most others in Europe, has fallen into a neo-liberal way of economic policy, shattering the previous, broadly Keynesian, consensus. There were safeguards around employment which developed and were maintained by governments of both partes in this country up until 1979. Following that, rights of workers and trades unions were decimated; over the same time period, the EU developed its own regulations regarding protection to employees and so forth. While this is a distinctly simplified view of events, it does help explain the shift in opposition to and support for the EU.
So I’d agree with you in many ways, but I’d still stick to my view that the main strand of opposition to EU membership in this country right now is on the right and not on the left.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Originally posted by @Fowllyd
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
So in short I am an arsehole but one that is correct, my views on Europe are transparent, they hurt the worker and abuse their rights, tories on here use is at as a guise for free trade when its code for cheap labour. We need an honest debate not snide name calling,
This is a constant refrain of yours on this subject, along with comments about the free market and those who champion it (Blair, Cameron, Clegg, etc.). Has it really never occurred to you that the great majority of those lining up to take Britain out of the EU (Farage, Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith, Grayling, etc. etc.) are at least as wedded to free market ideals - including cheap and avaiable labour, ease of hiring and firing and de-regulation of labour markets - as any of those who you disparage?
The loudest voices by far on the anti-EU front are those on the right. What is it that they really don’t like about the EU? In a word, regulation. Regulation of the labour market, regulation of industry, any regulation that goes against their free-market views. Do you think that a UK governed by the like of Farage or Johnson would implement policies giving workers better conditions and greater rights? Really?
I’ve said this before - you need to be wary of your bedfellows. Back in 1975, some on the left who opposed Britain’s EEC membership ahred platforms with the likes of the National Front, and were roundly and rightly condemned for doing so. You run exactly the same risk when you display such approbation for Farage (“Our Nige” apparently) and others of his ilk.
You may well have entirely different reasons to these for opposing our membership of the EU. In which case, present that case - don’t heap adulation on those whose reasons for leaving are (from what you tell us) diametrically opposed to yours.
My enemy’s enemy is my firend.
That’s as may be, though it’s a pretty feeble and pusillanimous way of lookng at things. Of course, you may simply be saying that in an attempt to wind me up, which would be no less feeble (I’ll let you off on the pusillanimous bit though).
But if you do really mean that, then I’d have to say that I’ve never seen an enemy’s enemy embraced with quite the fondness that you show for Farage et al.
I hope people know (they dont but Bazza wlll teach them) that our Nige voted Green once due to anti EU policies.
Amatuers.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
The EU was/is a mercantile project to subjecate the masses thinking/duping it was righton and clever thing to do regardless of womean rights.homosexuals rights and minorities and many others,
Is this the Freudian slip that explains it all?
?.. Yes Barry… we put in many more hours and get fuck all rights in return
In what way is this relevant to anything?
It means we can change.
I love the typo and grammar nazis as well, I wont pull out the old shot of Gene WIlder in his purple number etc etc you get the drift.
One has had many shandys at the cricket club so I am about to retire, goodnight motherfuckers.
1 Like
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
It means we can change.
How you draw that conclusion is beyond me. Farage (according to you) once voted for the Green Party because they had an anti-EU stance at the time. Unless his views on envirronmental matters have changed beyond recognition in the interim, he therefore voted for a party who he disagreed with in every area bar one. That doesn’t indicate ability to change, it indicates idiocy.
If you had a ballot paper in front of you, and the only candidate opposed to the EU held views pretty much in line with those of Ted Cruz, would you vote for that candidate?
2 Likes