Sorry guys, it’s all in the past, your arguments, however heart-felt, are irrelevant.
Please, let us move on and stop trying to score Brownie points.
All I will allow is your lat paragraph Pap, maths (all maths) is simply a process - follow the process, the answer will be right - start off with the wrong ‘numbers’ and the process will take you to the wrong result.
We now need to be ensuring we start off woth the right numbers.
That is all that matters now.
It’s very much in the future and we have one number and no pencil…
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Dont agree. You stand up against what you believe to be wrong. After a General election, the opposition dont suddenly stop challenging the Government in Parliament, and just let them get on with it, even if the the Government have a Mmajority. If you believe that something is wrong and unjust, who keep making the point, adding to your argument and in the hope that eventually more will come round to see your POV and then change their minds… and eventually cast different votes.
No. That is where I totally disagree with you GA, and imho I believe it is why you are in this Godawful mess.
In the rush to Centreism in the UK you have failed to have effective OPPOSITION Government for years. In fact the only times you seem to have an opposition is when there are free votes (bomb Syria comes to mind).
At least with Jezza there has been an inprovement but he is so unable to articulate and never truly supported by his colleagues.
Surely if a GOVERNMENT calls a referendum then an Opposition party should oppose it? AT least there would have been a chance that they may have created a policy or strategy. But in so many parts of the really big decisions in the era of consensus Politics (Austerity not jailing Bankers etc) where have the Opposition been?
The cross party clusterfuck, forcing Jezza to tow the party line (sorry establishment line) is one of the reassons you are in this mess, you have none of your traditional “opinions” to stand behind.
Dave calls a referendum because his party is split on whether EU membership is a good thing and they are worried about UKIP - no. They were worried that they had lost Public Opinion. Why the shock at the result.
If Only are the two most destructive words in the language.
You aren’t in this mess because some people are thick. You are in this mess because your REMAIN campaigners were idiots and they AND YOU LOT WHINING ON HERE did not make a convincing case to stay.
YOU fucked it up, you the Remainers. From Dave downwards. You allowed the debate to go off the rails, YOU did not focus on all the GOOD of the EU. You fed straight into the hands of the worries of the Public. And made it worse.
60% stay and you fucked it up I believe is the song.
Ramification of Brexit.
New term invented on Twitter.
Remainstream media.
5/10
Good post Phil.
I’m still reflecting on your assertion that Remainers are to blame because of the poor campaign.
I think ultimately my thought process will lead me to agree with you, but right now I’m thinking that years of Tory opposition and power coupled with the power of the free press, meant that no amount of campaigning would have turned that round. Still, as it was so close, you’re probably right.
But this isn’t going away.
We are a land divided.
I can feel the tension in this place - somewhere that we worked hard to make inclusive and welcoming.
What do all those new poster think reading this thread? Probably that this place is the same as other forums.
It’s sad and it’s ugly and if this forum is the UK in microcosm then there’s trouble ahead.
I’ve stopped posting on this thread (I know) because I have this horrible feeling inside that ‘people’ I thought I knew are really strangers to me. Pretty dramatic I know, but it’s how it feels, plus I’m moderately hungover.
My usual strategy to cope with this is to try to find common ground and debate, but it seems this isn’t even possible on this issue.
It’s black and it’s white.
Platitudinously telling Remainers to move on, as well intentioned as it might be, fails to recognise the depth of feeling.
I’m still somewhere between denial and anger on my journey through grief.
Just give me a while and I’ll be on to acceptance.
About 5 years should do it.
Rallyboy and I are PMing.
There’s no malice there. Just two gobby bastards gobbing off.
Just so you know, like.
We just need beers and a group hug.
Originally posted by @Goatboy
We just need beers and a group hug.
Yeah, I’m upset that bletch is upset - but as he says, it’s a divisive issue.
Everything is perception. You’ve got two groups of people, one a lot happier than the other, doing everything they can to confirm their bias. I do think the standard of debate on here hasn’t been great, and I would include my own content in that.
As a snapshot of time though, it’s perfect. We should see the upset, the upheaval and the recriminations. This site should contain our own warped record, recollection and interpretation of these events. Bletch’s abject misery on the issue, and I’m not taking the piss here, is just as valid as the get-on-with-it stuff, or the pap-is-Thatcher stuff, and just as invalid too, seeped in subjectivity as it is.
For me, personally, little has changed except the amount of crap I’m getting for political opinions 
I do most of my business with the US, who’ve elected not to shut down their operations in the wake of Brexit. I’m not indifferent to the problems that will be caused. I just feel that the long-term opportunities will be better for a number of reasons, not least the “small company” flexibility that we didn’t have when we were part of “large corporate” EU.
Very few mainstream politicians have dared address it, let alone embrace it - but they must. If we don’t make the most of these opportunities, then Brexit _was _for nothing. We’ve got a chance to take a good look at ourselves, catch a breath and get our own house in order - without being contravened by EU legislation that would have prevented scrutiny or implementation.
Great post Bletch.
Imho I don’t think it will take 5 years. Someone in the UK, a real leader needs to accept the failings of the EU and move the debate forwards
EU countries stand on the brink. France was rebelling at Austerity & change to employment law but Merkel brought the race card to the fore.
The EU was broken, it had ingrained socialist roots in a time of globalisation & capitalism. Control vs the market. Turkeys never vote for Christmas so they didn’t offer the concessions Cameron needed to win the referendum.
UK is divided. EU is cracking & the Eurozone is in real danger as are the Banks.
Dexit could be only months away which may negate some of the remain fears.
The problem now is managing the mess.
The leaders in UK don’t seem to be doing that & the media/establishment could be making things worse.
Just imagine the potential disaster IF the UK mental breakdown proves contagious.
There is a solution. Junker & Brussels out and EU 2.0 needs to be proposed.
Not sure the Turkeys have enough balls & if you aren’t careful it could get much worse.
Or the likes of Tata Steel decision today could be an inkling of a new hope
Originally posted by @pap
on was in or out. Is this a correct interpretation of your perspective, as that seems to be what you said?
A referendum is different from a GE in loads of ways. Primarily, you’re voting on one policy , but also, there’s no guarantee that the people you’re voting for are going to be willing or able to implement the policy you’re voting for.
That’s different from a GE, where we generally hold parties to their manifestos, and point any dalliances out like crazy. Those proposing the policy have the power to implement. That is not true of a referendum.
This is where we will have to agree to differ… because imho its so definitelyt not one issue, and is no diffrent from a GE, where you SHOULD be weighing up not just stated policy, but implications and impact. Sorry, but to suggest its a simple question and thus divorce yourself from any responsibilty for the impact of your vote is a Cop-out. By taking only a single issue or principle and simply ignoring the rest,I would suggest this is a selfish thing to do. you are satisfying your own intellectual principles being prepared to do so despite many of the more nasty practical implications. That is your right and your choice, but it is a selfish one.
If on the other hand you have considereed all the implications and impact and made your choice thus, then naturally I would question what possible benefit is there given the cost of brexit economically and to the social fabric and cohesion within our society…
I think it’s time for that dreaded word COALITION. Definition: An alliance of political groups formed to oppose a common foe or pursue a common goal.
Both sides at the moment are hell bent on self destruction at a critical time in this country’s history and in the meantime nothing looks like getting done. The only time a coalition worked successfully in living memory was in WW2 when it was easy to identify a common enemy…Nazis.
This time it also easy to identify the enemy…Poverty. Of course poverty is the ultimate enemy but to tackle that overriding national and international social injustice we need a functioning Parliamentary Democracy. Whilst we’re working in an acrid atmosphere of political polarisation that seems a long way off.
We’re are at a crossroads where a strong leadership is desperately needed…we’re out of the EU and the wolf is at the door.
Anyone know what the constitutional process of calling a coalition…and FFS nobody say holding a referendum.
That’d be at odds with the government’s decision to reject a second referendum.
A petition of 4 million raised the issue in Parliament. Their response was that the decision should be respected.
I’ve said all along that the referendum was consultative. All that’s happened is that the British people have expressed a preference. Article 50 hasn’t been invoked, so the reports you see that show the UK as being locked out of EU meetings would be gratuitous, if they weren’t there for a reason.
Apologies for those who have seen/heard this already but I missed QT when this was on and it sums up my thoughts on those who are telling me to shut up and suck it up perfectly. A quote from Mr Ian Hislop…
"After an election or a referendum, even if you lose the vote, you are entitled to go on making the argument. When a Government in this country wins an election, the opposition does not say ‘oh that’s absolutely right, I’ve got nothing to say for five years.’ So those those of us trying really hard over the last few weeks to follow what on earth is happening in this country: the Leave vote has left us with a group of leaders who, having lit the fire, have run away saying someone else can clear up the mess; the Prime Minister who put us in the mess has resigned; everybody is gone; all the people who put their cross down for Leave saying ‘this is what we want’ - they seem to be getting a group of people who say 'we cant stop immigration, we cant get £350 million, oh and there might be quite a lot of austerity…sorry, bye! ’ "
Is it just me… or would it not have been better to hold this referendum AFTER some sort of sharing of post vote policy/plan? because it looks fucking stupid to have held it without doing so…
To reiterate what I have said previously, anything Pap says in this discussion, should simply be dismissed out of hand. He is not qualified to comment on these matters. Parochial is precisely the right word to describe him. Someone who by his own admission feels like kissing the ground every time he arrives back from one of his globe trotting trips to N Ireland or the Isle of Man.
What’s more, he’s a shameless self publicist who has assimilated the devices and traits of the career politicians he claims to rail against. As far as I have observed, a discussion with him is a largely futile exercise because his objective is not to facilitate understanding, his objective is self aggrandisement and belittlement of his opponent.
He talks of taking advantage of this diabolical situation and suggests that others should too. What sort of human is that?
Why is refuting the validity of the referendum and demanding a rerun equated to the death of democracy. A referendum is simply a model which is constructed with the purpose of measuring opinion. If the model is shit, as it most certainly was this time, then the results it produces will also be shit. As long as the next model is more thoughtfully devised then the results it produces will be better. This model was shameful in it’s construction and execution.
One simple question to the exit-ers. Give me one significant example where Britain’s membership of the EU is directly detrimental to your way of life?
Originally posted by @StickyWhiteDovePiss
To reiterate what I have said previously, anything Pap says in this discussion, should simply be dismissed out of hand. He is not qualified to comment on these matters.
Constructive. I’m qualified to engineer software, so in a professional, technicality sense, you’re correct. The problem with that is that you’ve just dismissed everyone on this forum that isn’t a professional legislator or public representative. Even then, you’d only get one aspect of expertise. Who on Earth is qualified to cover the whole of the EU with authority?
Parochial is precisely the right word to describe him. Someone who by his own admission feels like kissing the ground every time he arrives back from one of his globe trotting trips to N Ireland or the Isle of Man.
What’s more, he’s a shameless self publicist who has assimilated the devices and traits of the career politicians he claims to rail against. As far as I have observed, a discussion with him is a largely futile exercise because his objective is not to facilitate understanding, his objective is self aggrandisement and belittlement of his opponent.
He talks of taking advantage of this diabolical situation and suggests that others should too. What sort of human is that?
Great minds discuss ideas.
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
That’s an idea you might like to discuss when you’re ready.
I’ve never been to the Isle of Man, btw.
Why is refuting the validity of the referendum and demanding a rerun equated to the death of democracy.
Huzzah! Our first actual content on the topic at hand.
We’ve just had the referendum. If you’re demanding a re-run you’re proclaiming that democracy didn’t work the first time. I’m well aware that there are naive motherfuckers out there that it should be run because people were lied to by politicians.
I applaud them. A slow, mocking clap.
A referendum is simply a model which is constructed with the purpose of measuring opinion. If the model is shit, as it most certainly was this time, then the results it produces will also be shit. As long as the next model is more thoughtfully devised then the results it produces will be better. This model was shameful in it’s construction and execution.
It’s a very simple poll - simpler and purer than a General Election. If you can’t get your head around a two horse race, don’t run your mouth.
One simple question to the exit-ers. Give me one significant example where Britain’s membership of the EU is directly detrimental to your way of life?
House prices, wages, the money I have to pay to privatised industries, never having the option to bring them back into nationalised and democratic control.
Honestly, SWDP, I’ve seen fuck all from you except comments about me or comments about our decision has affected you. Congratulations. You’ve actually made an emptier case than Remain.
Tedious statement by statement ripostes are of no interest to me, or to anyone else I should imagine, please don’t waste your time.
I don’t think you’re a total cunt. I’m behind you 90% on the Corbyn thread.
I enjoy your Game of thrones musings.
However, I think you are continuing to miss my point regarding the validity of your opinions with regards to Britain’s relationship with Europe. In the same way that Jamie Reed’s opinion on Corbyns performance during the referendum should not be taken seriously. Your opinion, the opinion of a deluded middle aged man who has not even bothered to visit the European Union, who has chosen not take advantage of the freedoms afforded by membership, that opinion, should also not be taken seriously. I just want to make that clear to everyone here reading your forthright posts, in particular those who may not be familiar with your SWF posting history. You are Parochial Pap and you have aligned yourself with your people.
For all the things that you and I have in common (you may be surprised to learn that there are many), I cannot forgive your people for this. As Bletch say’s, you are now strangers. For me, there is no conciliation possible as a result of this issue. I do not now expect to return to the UK as I once did. I hope that the people based in the UK who voted to remain, dig their heels in. I hope that their anger does not fade and that this farcical result is overturned.
House prices, wages, money to privatised industry. Too weak and impersonal to warrant a proper response.
To be fair Pap and Bletch spend their own time and run this forum as a personal hobby thing. Even if you don’t agree there’s really no need for personal abuse 
Originally posted by @StickyWhiteDovePiss
Tedious statement by statement ripostes are of no interest to me, or to anyone else I should imagine, please don’t waste your time.
I don’t think you’re a total cunt. I’m behind you 90% on the Corbyn thread.
I enjoy your Game of thrones musings.
However, I think you are continuing to miss my point regarding the validity of your opinions with regards to Britain’s relationship with Europe. In the same way that Jamie Reed’s opinion on Corbyns performance during the referendum should not be taken seriously. Your opinion, the opinion of a deluded middle aged man who has not even bothered to visit the European Union, who has chosen not take advantage of the freedoms afforded by membership, that opinion, should also not be taken seriously. I just want to make that clear to everyone here reading your forthright posts, in particular those who may not be familiar with your SWF posting history. You are Parochial Pap and you have aligned yourself with your people.
For all the things that you and I have in common (you may be surprised to learn that there are many), I cannot forgive your people for this. As Bletch say’s, you are now strangers. For me, there is no conciliation possible as a result of this issue. I do not now expect to return to the UK as I once did. I hope that the people based in the UK who voted to remain, dig their heels in. I hope that their anger does not fade and that this farcical result is overturned.
House prices, wages, money to privatised industry. Too weak and impersonal to warrant a proper response.
You’re making assumptions that are incorrect. I’ve spent a month in Spain; learned quite a bit of the language. I have also spent time in France, Greece, Netherlands and Republic of Ireland. I have visited the EU. I’ve lived in it a version of it since birth, as well.
You’re also ignoring statements I’ve made in which I lay out conditions where I would be happy with the EU. I am not unchangeable in my views. I would be happy to be part of a democratically controlled, socially oriented Europe, holding up the sort of ideas that we 90% agree on with Corbyn. That wasn’t on the table. In fact,. Cameron, who completely misjudged the mood throughout, came back with a Remain deal worse than the one we have.
The only thing he negotiated was the removal of benefits for people that have been here less than four years. Given that most migrants come here to work, and that most workers need benefits to survive these days. It was a bad deal. No problematic aspect of the EU was seriously under consideration for reform. I would have been more likely to have voted for the deal had he got nothing, rather than this punitive something.
So, from my perspective, you’ve got an organisation that is already failing in many ways, and enabling a lot of things that I really don’t think are helpful, such as the present military containment of Russia with US forces, or fascists being elevated to power in neighbouring Ukraine. The deal we have to stay in is worse than the one we presently have.
I don’t require it, but it may benefit you to give me a little more credit. I don’t adopt different political positions for each thread. I am not completely anti-EU, but a vote to Remain not only would have validated its present form, which I have huge problems with anyway, but would also have made new migrants worse off.
The focus now has to be on ensuring that EU migrants like yourself retain residential rights where you are. Labour have managed to do this in the midst of their turmoil over there. I trust that similar is happening where you live.