Originally posted by @Numptyboi
Originally posted by @jet-sounds
- I don’t believe anyone said immigration would be halted, I believe the term is controlled, and I see nothing wrong with that at all.
2)Yes!, the remain claims ARE scaremongering, there’s so many people pissing themselves atm it’s unbelievable…it won’t be easy, that’s life, but in my view we (not me personally) will be better off in the future.
3)And now I’m a ‘muppet’?..so we never played in Europe pre 1975?
I’d be interested to hear how we will be better off in the future too. Serious question Jet Sounds.
And I’ll answer you honestly, I don’t know, I but I honestly think that we’ll be better off looking outside of the EU, there’s a big world out there…let’s stop being negative and think Europe is the be all and end all, it’s not.
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I admire you’re use of **bold ** text 
…as an aside, Germany has what is termed the ‘Works Council’ - from direct experience, this makes our unions and even Red Robbo, look like pussy cats.
It is an utterly restrictive set up (admittedly brilliant for DE workers) which I am sure we could take advantage of!
…if we put our minds to it…
Originally posted by @TedMaul
I admire you’re use of **bold ** text
Thank you dear, 'tis the vino typing…
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Someone suggested that we could still adopt the EU line on workers’ rights and equality, despite voting to abandon them…
Personally I wouldn’t trust a right wing PM with that call - I’d rather have a law.
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Dont agree. You stand up against what you believe to be wrong. After a General election, the opposition dont suddenly stop challenging the Government in Parliament, and just let them get on with it, even if the the Government have a Mmajority. If you believe that something is wrong and unjust, who keep making the point, adding to your argument and in the hope that eventually more will come round to see your POV and then change their minds… and eventually cast different votes.
As it stands, no one has evoked the clause. If you believe doing so would NOT be in the best interests of the country, you make your voice heard. Its not about whether you think its futile, its NOT about challenging democracy as some would try and have you believe…because having the freedom and right to continue to challenge (and change your mind) IS democracy.
If folks just 'give up and ‘accept’ - then we are abusing those democratic rights… This decision will have far more, far reaching consequences for thsis country than any gerneral election, so imho, its even more important than one and should remain at the top of the agenda, and be challenged as much as possible… that is my democratic right.
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Originally posted by @Rallyboy
Many people didn’t understand the question.
Many didn’t connect their own lives to the national economy.
A significant number were blatantly racist.
A few regret the way they voted as they didn’t grasp what could happen with regard to their own money, the loss of EU funding, national security, trade deals, and even a rise in hate crimes as the far right wrongly took the result as a pointer that half the country is with them.
Many feel they were misled by the campaigns of Johnson and Farage.
Some are billionaire opportunist gamblers who love a recession - they are making a killing.
A handful are still pretending they are happy but you can see in their eyes they know they’ve fucked up.
A couple are still in denial about the link between their vote and the immediate effect of it.
At least one keeps standing up wanting to defend the campaign, and then moans because he gets people knocking him down with facts.
But we are getting what the country demanded -
A fucked economy that will trickle down into every trade and community, the withdrawal of workers’ rights, a legal system that needs decades of work, an NHS that we can’t staff, and to top it all, we could soon become an irrelevant little island just off Europe.
No frothing, no hysteria, just my own honest summary - so if you are considering writing something childish in response, don’t bother with the insults.
Who didn’t understand the question?
Maybe many people aren’t connected to the econmoy like you and me because they’re not really part of it?
Racist?..that’s disgusting.
Rergetters are only metioned by remainers who keep pissing themselves and no one else…I could go on, but it’s getting tedious.
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Nothing to disagree with there GA.
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
Rule number 1 - Don’t believe 99.9% of politicians.
Only an imbecile would have to be told that = remainers
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Dont agree. You stand up against what you believe to be wrong. After a General election, the opposition dont suddenly stop challenging the Government in Parliament, and just let them get on with it, even if the the Government have a Mmajority. If you believe that something is wrong and unjust, who keep making the point, adding to your argument and in the hope that eventually more will come round to see your POV and then change their minds… and eventually cast different votes.
As it stands, no one has evoked the clause. If you believe doing so would NOT be in the best interests of the country, you make your voice heard. Its not about whether you think its futile, its NOT about challenging democracy as some would try and have you believe…because having the freedom and right to continue to challenge (and change your mind) IS democracy.
If folks just 'give up and ‘accept’ - then we are abusing those democratic rights… This decision will have far more, far reaching consequences for thsis country than any gerneral election, so imho, its even more important than one and should remain at the top of the agenda, and be challenged as much as possible… that is my democratic right.
GA, that’s your democratic right and I accept it…no need for the abuse if someone doesn’t agree with you though is there?
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
… If you believe doing so would NOT be in the best interests of the country, you make your voice heard. Its not about whether you think its futile, its NOT about challenging democracy as some would try and have you believe…because having the freedom and right to continue to challenge (and change your mind) IS democracy…
…ah, but Pandora’s box has been opened now. I don’t know now what would serve the country the best because I don’t know if the ‘real’ possibilities outwiegh the problems.
Who can I turn to to tell me what hose possibilities are to allow me to determine whether and how to make my voice heard?
Jet -
Who didn’t understand the question? -
Errr, the people who didn’t know what the EU was, people who thought the NHS would be getting £350m a week, people who think Syria is in Europe, people who didn’t grasp the rules of the Single Market, people who think we can easily organise a trade deal with China, people who think we can vote back in next time, people who didn’t know the Swiss have been negotiating for 44 years, people who confused the immigration issue with austerity, people who didn’t realise how our national security operates, people who thought they had voted for foreigners to leave…etc etc.
You also seem to be questioning my suggestion that a section voted Leave because they are racist - brace yourself for this bombshell…they are and they did. 
And if you are denying the existence of the far right in the UK then I’m not sure what we can say to assist.
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Originally posted by @jet-sounds
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Dont agree. You stand up against what you believe to be wrong. After a General election, the opposition dont suddenly stop challenging the Government in Parliament, and just let them get on with it, even if the the Government have a Mmajority. If you believe that something is wrong and unjust, who keep making the point, adding to your argument and in the hope that eventually more will come round to see your POV and then change their minds… and eventually cast different votes.
As it stands, no one has evoked the clause. If you believe doing so would NOT be in the best interests of the country, you make your voice heard. Its not about whether you think its futile, its NOT about challenging democracy as some would try and have you believe…because having the freedom and right to continue to challenge (and change your mind) IS democracy.
If folks just 'give up and ‘accept’ - then we are abusing those democratic rights… This decision will have far more, far reaching consequences for thsis country than any gerneral election, so imho, its even more important than one and should remain at the top of the agenda, and be challenged as much as possible… that is my democratic right.
GA, that’s your democratic right and I accept it…no need for the abuse if someone doesn’t agree with you though is there?
There have been some heated comments but I think that’s to be expected.
Since voting leave I have been told that I have ruined children’s futures, ruined retirement plans, I am a racist, I am thick, I am a troublemaker. I have also been told by one of my oldest friends that she was racially abused in West Quay. None of these things Have happened on the internet, they are all happening IRL and they all have a massive effect on me.
And yes, these things have made me look again at my vote. Reconsider what made me vote the way I did.
And I’m still a leaver.
And Goat doesn’t know his Tuesdays from his Wednesdays.
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And I’m a cunt.
#notnews
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Originally posted by @Goatboy
Originally posted by @jet-sounds
Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Dont agree. You stand up against what you believe to be wrong. After a General election, the opposition dont suddenly stop challenging the Government in Parliament, and just let them get on with it, even if the the Government have a Mmajority. If you believe that something is wrong and unjust, who keep making the point, adding to your argument and in the hope that eventually more will come round to see your POV and then change their minds… and eventually cast different votes.
As it stands, no one has evoked the clause. If you believe doing so would NOT be in the best interests of the country, you make your voice heard. Its not about whether you think its futile, its NOT about challenging democracy as some would try and have you believe…because having the freedom and right to continue to challenge (and change your mind) IS democracy.
If folks just 'give up and ‘accept’ - then we are abusing those democratic rights… This decision will have far more, far reaching consequences for thsis country than any gerneral election, so imho, its even more important than one and should remain at the top of the agenda, and be challenged as much as possible… that is my democratic right.
GA, that’s your democratic right and I accept it…no need for the abuse if someone doesn’t agree with you though is there?
There have been some heated comments but I think that’s to be expected.
Since voting leave I have been told that I have ruined children’s futures, ruined retirement plans, I am a racist, I am thick, I am a troublemaker. I have also been told by one of my oldest friends that she was racially abused in West Quay. None of these things Have happened on the internet, they are all happening IRL and they all have a massive effect on me.
And yes, these things have made me look again at my vote. Reconsider what made me vote the way I did.
And I’m still a leaver.
I’m more of a leaver than I was before the referendum, tbh I was expecting a remain and my life would have carried on…the vitriol from remain has disgusted me, I’m a really laid back person but they’ve got my back up.
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
Jet -
Who didn’t understand the question? -
Errr, the people who didn’t know what the EU was, people who thought the NHS would be getting £350m a week, people who think Syria is in Europe, people who didn’t grasp the rules of the Single Market, people who think we can easily organise a trade deal with China, people who think we can vote back in next time, people who didn’t know the Swiss have been negotiating for 44 years, people who confused the immigration issue with austerity, people who didn’t realise how our national security operates, people who thought they had voted for foreigners to leave…etc etc.
You also seem to be questioning my suggestion that a section voted Leave because they are racist - brace yourself for this bombshell…they are and they did.
And if you are denying the existence of the far right in the UK then I’m not sure what we can say to assist.
Did you honestly think we were going to give £350 million a week to the NHS? honestly Rallyboy?..you’re not thick. If anyone thought that then they’re retarded…but DC also said article50 was going to be invoked the day after the referendum…do you think I believed him?
Goatboy, I’m already ‘retired’ (still officially employed as my company still exists atm, but no money coming in), Bremain or Brexit wont affect it, the Racism faced by your friend distresses me and my ‘english’ values and I would, and will, face-off to such abuse, I have Hungarian, Transylvanian, German, Spanish, Italian, Spanish, Portugese and Indian ex-colleagues and friends, some of whom are very dea to me. And we are all thick when it comes to huge ‘things’ like the EU, absolutely and without doubt.
I am still a remainer as, right now, I believe the status-quo is better than the new - but if it can be proven (to thick little me) otherwise, I’ll go ‘new’.
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Originally posted by @areloa-grandee
Sorry Pap. this thing wont go away, and I wont let you off that easy…
Ooh, a grilling. Let’s see how hot we get.
You have said that the referendum is different from a GE because… In a General election, you get to see ALL the proposed policy in a manifesto and therefore, you vote on based on how you feel on balance across all the various policies - in effect you make a compromise on which combination of policies best fits with your idology or principles. However, in the referendum, no one published what would happen next so the only thing you voted on was in or out. Is this a correct interpretation of your perspective, as that seems to be what you said?
A referendum is different from a GE in loads of ways. Primarily, you’re voting on one policy, but also, there’s no guarantee that the people you’re voting for are going to be willing or able to implement the policy you’re voting for.
That’s different from a GE, where we generally hold parties to their manifestos, and point any dalliances out like crazy. Those proposing the policy have the power to implement. That is not true of a referendum.
You have also previously been quoted here as someone who believes that if you vote in a GE you must accept responsibility for all that the party does as you should take the time to understand their FULL policy before casting your vote and thus you cant isoloate the policy you approve off from the policy you dont - they are intrinsically linked… and if you can not reconcile this it would suggest abstention? Correct?
Have I?
I’m not sure I remember saying anything like that. I’m well aware of people casting their vote while “holding their nose”, voting tactically to keep a party out.
Seems like an absolute that I wouldn’t have a great deal of time for. However, I do think that Conservative voters knew what they were getting in 2015, knew about the collateral damage, and still continued to vote for those policies. I think even they realise they’ve gone too far.
So this is where I am confused. If the Leave voters are not all thick, as you and others have suggested they are not and its a slur to suggest so, I must therefore, assume they are smart and able.
Why? That’s not remotely logical.
Not all thick doesn’t mean all smart and able. It means not all thick.
As such they will have taken the time to digest ALL the campaign material, and lets assume even more intelligence, so would have known many of the short term and even medium term consequences of Brexit - even if ot published, indeed, in some cases even welcomed them?
Your initial premise is flawed. I can do nowt with this.
So surely if anyone had any concerns about some of the consequences of their decisions, or concerns about who they were standing shoulder to shoulder with, they could have abstained, as in a general election… because , as with a general election, if you cant feel comfortable voting for the whole shebang, its best not to vote?
Or this.
Finally, lets go back to your defence that it was a simple in or out question and so is different from a GE… is it really? seriously? Last time I saw a GE ballot paper its only listed the names of the options for local MP, it did not ask me questions on all the policies, implications or potential pros and cons of that decsion… in effect a simple single decision… no fucking different form the referendum question…
I’ve dealt with this already. You’re weighing up a range of policies and deciding whether the good outweighs the bad.
A referendum deals with one area of policy.
You cant have it both ways, either voters were smart and able to make an informed decision, based on a complex combination of facts, in which case as in a GE, they MUST take full responsibulty for everything that happens as a result, or they were too dumb to understand the consequences, or simply did not care.
GA - most all of this post is based on your baseless idea that “not all thick” equates to “all smart and able”.
You’ve totally gone out on a limb.
You now say you ARE taking responsibility, does that include ALL the shit that is now happening, including the ugly stuff? and what exactly does your responsibilty include/mean? how are YOU making it right? Sorry, they are just empty words Pap…
As I said earlier, I’ve been campaigning, donating money and joining political organisations.
Before you decry someone’s words as empty, have a go at reading them first please.
This reminds me of a GCSE maths question I did back in the day. Started off wrong, and with every next step, with the multiplications and powers of fucking whatever, just more and more so.