As Roy Walker would say, it’s good, but it’s not right.
Which bit of the referendum question don’t you understand? Why can’t you understand that in those plainly stated terms, the Prime Minister has clearly failed to deliver?
Why are you accusing others of assumptions when the question on the paper is pretty unambiguous and doesn’t rely on them?
May’s grubby package is worse than no deal, worse than remaining, and was written entirely in Brussels. That is not what people voted for, which is why this deal will be voted down in Parliament.
You don’t need to make any assumptions at all to compare leaving the European Union with May’s deal and conclude that they’re not the same thing.
Its very simple pap… I suspect MOST voters would have preferred not to have such a black and white question as MOST who are not ideologically obsessed, see advantages and disadvantages in EU membership… They way they voted will have come down to how important some of those issues were and which side of the divide that fell on… why cant YOU accept that? Because it makes your stance illogical?
I suspect that MOST people would prefer a compromise that retains some of the benefits as they seem them … that is what doing a deal is about and the only way to be clear on whether the deal is representative of a compromise they are willing to accept is to ask the people, not limit everything to that simplistic question… As has been said many times… it would be like asking folks to vote in election between two candidates yet neither gives you a full manifesto, only a single answer to an over simplified questions… and you are happy with that because it suits your rather limited and ideological POV…
I disagree for a couple of reasons. First, the question is unambiguous. Remain or Leave. Remaining meant staying in European institutions. Leaving meant leaving them. To suggest that people did not understand that when the Prime Minister went to great lengths to ensure that they did.
Second, no one ever talked about compromise in the event of a Remain win. There would have been no hard Remain, no soft Remain - we’d have just remained.
These are not difficult concepts to understand, which is why so many are against it. People voted to Leave, and we are not leaving. May’s deal technically frees us of many of the obligations, but if we’re beholden to EU law, past, present and future, the EU can just issue directives overturning what was agreed.
I suspect that you’re quite removed from the folk you’re having the suspicions about.
OK. Question is very simple and unambiguous … BUT the reasons for voting one way or the other are NOT for most people - MOST normal folk will NOT have had a strong ideological perspective on membership or not, but IMHO will have been aware of various pros and cons - so they weigh it up based on your view on those pros and cons eg.for some folks, freedom of movement is a pro, others a con…etc etc… It is a simple concept so not sure why you are struggling with it…
Well this is strictly not true… our membership was already a ‘soft;’ one since we are not part of the Euro, have opted out of various EU rules and took a big rebate which meant we did not get a full allocation of EU grants and spending… what many have not considered is that that any likely return will never get those concessions again…
That is the point i am making … many people voted leave because they wanted an end to freedom of movement, yet don’t replay care less about the rest of it… others for different reasons, so as long as those criteria on which they voted are satisfied, I suspect they would be willing to compromise IF it meant we retain some of the benefits…Its IS INDEED a simple concept…
There you go again, making very sweeping assumptions that are frankly full of shit. Were you never warned about what assumptions make you? You also sneek in words like ‘suspicions about’ - nice try to make it look like its some sort of accusation… another snide pseudo politico bollocks you like to try and use to twist the agenda… you are too obvious with these little ‘subtle’ digs … there is no ‘Suspicion’ of anything, its an opinion that I have based on many folks whom I have spoken with on both sides who voted as they did based on strong feelings about one or two issues… not an ideological driver… folks who happily admit they might have voted the other way had that led to a resolution…
I suspect you’re quite removed from reality, in your own little ‘right on’ bubble. A curious mix of a student socialist workeranista, 70s political relic yet displays some of the unpleasant characteristics of a Daily Mail reader…
If anything Map, I think it’s yourself that needs a lesson.
Not being a member of the Eurozone is not soft Remain. It’s simply not being member of the Eurozone, and as Greece found out to its great cost, there are very good reasons for retaining control over your own currency.
I’ve got to politely enquire - do you remember anything about what you write in your previous posts before writing the next one? You’ve spent the last part of this reply going mental because I used the terms “I suspect” and “the people you have suspicions about”.
This wasn’t nearly as complex or sinister a turn of words as you’ve made out. I was using words you’d posted yourself, in the previous post, to describe your suspicions about the British electorate, and you being pretty out of step with the majority of them, provably so in June 2016.
Very much so, yet you frequently chose what to refer to - selective response ignoring anything you cant answer…
Er, no, not ‘going mental’ simply pointing out that you seem incapable or more likely unwilling to ever concede a very simple point - that not everyone is like you - (Thank fuck)
You frequently illustrate very typical trolling tendencies… ignoring questions, taking parts of sentence out of context, introducing emotive words to try and influence how others might perceive a post… hence the obvious example… ‘suspicion’ suggests I am judging those people… when I am not… its a common trolling trait
Because you have asked them all? Your keep hammering on about 17 million as if they are all in full agreement with you and your ideology… my point has been a very simple one… I don’t ‘suspect’ but believe, the majority are not - many have just reacted to 10 years of austerity, others believe UK will suddenly regain its industrial and economic might when we stop the influx of polish plumbers…
As mentioned a fuck load of times… I believe most folks in this country see pros and cons in membership of the EU. That means that most would ideally accept some compromise. We will only know for certain if its put to the public.
You go on and on about democracy, but assume you know how the electorate feel about the deal… what are you frightened of? That they might accept it and it then fuck up your ideological glee? I thought you were the champion of democracy?
Best go back and read some broader material, because you seem to regurgitating a rather narrow set of other peoples opinions…
It really doesn’t matter if 17.4m agree with my ideology, @Map-Of-Tasmania. As I’ve repeatedly tried to demonstrate, that wasn’t the question on the referendum. The question on the referendum was simple. The British public, when asked, thought the United Kingdom should leave the European Union, said we should leave.
That means leaving the Single Market (EU institution), Customs Union (EU institution), European Court of Justice (EU institution).
There was no doubt about this prior to the poll. Many Remain campaigning politicians used the loss of these facilities as threats.
The only people who think these options are still on the table are the losing Remain anti-democrats because they want to move the goalposts and reset the score after losing the last game.
Can we also move on? It’s clear that questioning you on these issues merely produces the sort of debate that’ll turn anyone off the idea of debate.
There are plenty of big things happening with the EU at the moment. Can I suggest we discuss those instead of what you think of me?
What like Tokes, Fatso, Soggy, CD, TCK, others before them? how many others have fucked off because they simply had enough of your patronising style and twisting things… you are right though, I am focused on what I think of you as its fundamental to your approach to debate… a piss poor troll…
Funny how you seem to be the common denominator in their departures… your arrogance that they are not missed and forum continues would be funny as fuck if not so misguided… why if it was not for the match thread and this one, the place is dead…
Your assumptions on the 17.1 mil are ridiculous… its what you want to believe. Its also been funny how many of your socialist principles you seem to have been happy to cast aside in an effort to remain true to the Brexit ‘cause’…
… So after accusing me of being drunk when posting (just a bit of banter I am sure) you then go act all superior and ‘bring it all back on topic’? Seriously, you need to start on a self awareness course…
This may well be true… but missing the point. It was illustrative of double standards as applied to posting. Re. him being pissed after a heavy lunch? Do any of us want to be castigated and remembered for our worst? Glass houses/first stone and all that
Ramifications.
We are moving to Poland. We have had 8 removal company quotes so far. We don’t have enough stuff for a 20ft container so need creating and loose cargo.
The ONLY route for that is here to UK where it gets cleared through customs then re-shipped to Poland.
Loose cargo takes 45 days before it is re-exported then another 10 minimum. Container takes 35 days Rotterdam-Gdansk-road to Krakow.
Loose cargo is about £500 less than a container.
All personal effects heading to EU except Holland go this route from the Gulf States.
That industry will vanish, no replacement routes in place yet.
Trivial but complex
Well it would mean we can take another trip to the Outlet Stores. Plus I can actually pack all my golf souvenirs…
Could even pack some of the old Saints shirts that still fit to wear down the pub in Krakow! Oh wait, they won’t show our games on so regularly when we are in the EFL so that may be a pointless one
