Although, broadly sympathetic with many of his points (especially those around the refugee crisis), Ali has a nerve calling out Chomsky for sentimentality when he has no clear pathway to reform himself. Lots of broad brush strokes and emotive language in that video - not much ‘doing’ going on though.
His path is a lot clearer than Chomsky’s on the issue. I think Chomsky’s biggest warning was that the UK would become even more of a vassal state to the US than it already is.
We haven’t exactly been saying “no” a lot beforehand.
Originally posted by @pap
There are fucking massive buses going up and down the country at all times. I grant you, not all of the buses get this level of publicity.
I missed this 1st time round…
…Megabus telling me I can get to Newcastle for a quid is not the same kind of lie.
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The point was that we’re ruthlessly advertised to and don’t necessarily act on every message.
People can make their own minds.
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I’ve really bitten my tongue over this discussion. But this post is just ridiculous. If advertising doesn’t work, why do companies bother? And normally, when advertising, outright lies are avoided as action will be taken. They might suggest your life will be better but this is wholly different from major political figures promising money if we left the EU. People can make their own minds up, but when it comes to complex political and economic decisions they tend to take advice from those who supposedly know better…when those people lie to you it might not always be clear, particularly if you’re a bit thick.
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I’ve seen on this board and elsewhere Leave people saying that most people didn’t vote because of the £350m promise or immigration. So what did they vote on? The complex political and economic structures of the EU? Get fucking real. Leave people don’t like it but they have to acknowledge that lots of people voted to leave because of xenophobia/racism. Others were fooled into thinking the NHS would be properly funded. Very few understood what they were voting for…its not even certain now what they’ve voted for. Something about taking back control…by plunging us into years of uncertainty. Oh, that sort of control.
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Advertising does work. Big time. We might think we know our own minds but we are feed thousands of messages everyday and many of them stick. Yes people are thick and yes people fall for it. That’s why billions of pounds a year are spent on advertising. What we need to do though is to hold people who mislead through advertising accountable. We can start by putting pressure on Brexit to make good on their pledge to give £350m to the NHS each week!
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So an advert on the side of a bus qualifies?
As I said before, _if _it worked, the only reason it did is because the government has put the NHS in danger. That’s a much harder point to dismiss though, as is the effect of the fear of the Remain campaign.
No poll is going to be perfect. The electorate is not some collective manifestation of political savvy perfection. Every poll is going to reflect that.
Of course it worked. Some people would have voted based on what they were told, otherwise the whole point of campaigning would have been pointless.Farage tapped into the fear of migrants with his campaign. Why is it so hard for you to accept that? It should never have gone to a vote because people don’t understand enough about it. No one knows what is about to happen, the “experts” don’t agree so how can run of the mill people, particularly those who are thick, be expected to make a sensible decision. If the job of the campaigns was to help people make informed decisions then printing lies on the side of the bus wouldn’t have helped.
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Originally posted by @pap
So an advert on the side of a bus qualifies?
As I said before, _if _it worked, the only reason it did is because the government has put the NHS in danger. That’s a much harder point to dismiss though, as is the effect of the fear of the Remain campaign.
What do you mean if, Pap? Of course it fucking worked as did the massive lies about immigration. Now, it might not have worked on you and probably didn’t work on a fair sized wedge of those who voted Leave. Fair enough, you’ve got carefully thought through reasons for wanting to leave the EU and fair play to you for that. But (and it’s a fucking massive but) that battlebus that was beamed into people’s homes via mainstream news outlets every day for weeks (let’s face it - it’s not just an advert on the side of a bus) influenced a huge number of people - now you can deny that all you want but everyone else here can see that it’s fucking true (yes - even if it can’t be empirically proven)
For some reason your posts on this seem to be attempting to defend the indefensible…as said I respect your viewpoint re: Leave but to suggest that (probably) millions of people weren’t duped into voting for something they weren’t going to get is outrageous even by your ‘I’ll argue about fucking anything’ standards.
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Even if people didn’t buy into the message 100% the message of spending that money at home instead of in Europe is what Brexiters wanted to hear, same with immigration. They were fed messages that they wanted to hear and no one bothered to ask any questions because they were going to get their country back and that was it. Of course things are starting look a bit tricky for Brexit because they don’t have a plan to deal with the forthcoming shitstorm and that odious creature Gove could end up as PM. I have been told to stop having a tantrum by the Brexiters. When the enormity of what they have done dawns on them perhaps they with see why us Remainers are so worried about the future.
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I really must have missed the survey where they broke down Leave voter intention into categories like:-
a) tricked by a bus
b) racist cunt, innit
c) Nigel Farage is my own personal Lord and Saviour
d) I thought I was voting for Big Brother
Do you have a link?
Can I interject on the behalf of ‘thick’ people?
They haven’t got the monopoly on making poor decisions: intelligent people are perfectly capable of making them as well.
Perhaps ‘thick’ would be better replaced by ‘uninformed’, but this then raises the question: who do people choose to inform them? I suggest that this choice is determined more by pre-existing prejudices and biases than by levels of intelligence.
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Mwah. Brexit was never a government. This wasn’t a general election. Anyone that had an expectation that some kind of government would be formed from a binary issue campaign really needs to read up on how governments are formed.
No, I’m happy with my use of the word “thick”. There are some very stupid people in our country and I wouldn’t trust any of them with making a sensible decision on Europe. Equally, I wouldn’t trust many people, as I said, the complexities of the EU are beyond many people as are the ramifications. Pre existing prejudice and bias is quite often determined by your level of stupidity.
This is why I have chosen not to really debate with you on this thread and why others find you infuriating/patronising/irritating.
It wasn’t intended to be patronising. It was intended to highlight a point I keep making that no-one seems to want to acknowledge. There’s no way you can quantify the tricked by a bus demographic, just as there’s no easy way to quantify potential Leave voters scared out of their fucking minds.
I am interested in evidence, if it’s out there. Otherwise it’s just shouty speculation, isn’t it?
When it comes to shouty speculation are we talking about people’s response to the result or the campaign leading up to it?
Come on pap you are now simply kicking over the traces. I haven’t seen you deny the lies but you are denying the possible/probable effects. You can’t have both ways.
I had to sit and suffer these fuckin lies being trotted out on social media on a daily basis by friends and family for a couple of months before the vote.
Just single line Trumpisms like “Take Control” and a picture of Boris…countless pictures of the fucking red bus…pictures of lines of Syrian Refugees…pictures of war graves with “Did they Die in Vain”. All trotted out to a retinue of other back-slappers who were also going to “Take Control”
When I finally decided to put more meat on the bones and supply links to independant websites like “Full Facts.org” not a single comment or “like” …they had all the “proof” they needed. They had gorged on the feast of one line rhetoric and had no stomach for a cold desert of FACTS.
Don’t tell us it had little or no effect on the result.
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Originally posted by @pap
I really must have missed the survey where they broke down Leave voter intention into categories like:-
a) tricked by a bus
b) racist cunt, innit
c) Nigel Farage is my own personal Lord and Saviour
d) I thought I was voting for Big BrotherDo you have a link?
I clearly stated that there was no empirical evidence (that I’m aware of) so not sure what your point is here.
I’m also not sure why you’re sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting ‘la la la’.
I do know you’re not coming out of this looking very good though.*
*I’m also aware you won’t care much about this - as long as you think you’ve won eh?