:brexit: Brexit - The Ramifications

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

OK DP, couple of thoughts taht illustrate my take on it:

@Polski_Filip

The REMAINERS are more VOCAL on Social Media.

I think this is to be expected… as the ‘defeated’ its cathartic to vent spleen, because irrespective of those that voted Brexit out of some ideological as they see it good reason, there is belief that there were enough who where all those nasty things that swung it…

@Polski_Filip

It was not because of immigration, it was because I disagreed with the EU forcing a “social democratic” view of law and “rights” on a Nation that preferred to choose between Left or Right Wing Centrist policies every 4/5 years.

Thing is this is often cited, but can you name me one piece of EU legislation that you would have vetoed or wholly disagreed with. I disagree all the time with legislation made by local, and central government, the extra layer is really just that, and extra layer and we will always agree on somethings and disagree on others… I must admit, for me its less about where something is legislated from, as to what impact that legislation has… Does the the impact of UK Government austerity make it more palatable simple because it was a UK decision?

We may in this country feel that swinging between left and `right every few years is a good thing… how exactly? Its led to no commitment to longer term policy from the NHS, to transport infrastructure, pensions, education … all tossed and turned on the alter of party politics and what will win a few more votes as opposed to a long term perspective only possible when there is a more long term stability… these items need be outside of the party political agenda and debated and agreed by all so that long term plans can be implemented…

@Polski_Filip

The problem is that the debate is still based upon If Only’s. Not about the future vision. It is short termist and even IF a new referendum was announced, the only change is a better awareness of what

Very true, so it becomes an assessment of risk (if you are not in an ideological camp) - I am in an ideological camp which I explained very early on… so will not repeat, so its the implications I am interested in… and form where I am sitting they don’t look good… I have not heard HOW we will improve the lot of the UK people, not even how we will prevent the the current situation getting worse

@Polski_Filip

Should the EU have fucking listened to our grievances? Fuck yes.

Indeed, but as others have pointed out, we have never played at the top table, because in order to appease the Tory Euro Sceptics we have for years demanded concessions as opposed to helping drive the agenda.

[Polski_Filip]

On legislation , I followed Christopher Booker in the Telegraph for a long time.
He highlighted many legislative absurdities but cannot recall them right now. But some parts of employment protection have been damaging - reducedcworking hours and redundancy/dismissal rules especially in France (Not arguing that legislation was needed but did it go too far and help things like zero hours contracts)
Oddly shaped vegetables these are trivial. The key was how UK then enacted and enforced rukes/laws. They went so aggressive, armies of enforcers. And yet other countries implemented them less strictly if at all.
No that isn’t an answer but memories. I could add some of the EU Court pronouncements on deporting preacher’s of hate but you lot were closer.

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

I concur, but lets look at why there was legislation re oddly shaped vegetables… I know it seems absurd, but when you have free trade across all markets, there needs to be a minimum standard to avoid the situation where some markets are getting inferior or sub standard goods vs others… its a way of protecting all consumers, no matter silly its appears. Its like fishermen having to throw back teh junior fish and shell fish below a certain size… with for ensuring stocks last and as a QC measure… but that besides the point… Post Brexit we may just end up with the crappy stuff that the EU wont buy at a price that some wont be able to afford… I dont know but I quite like having some of those protections… then again UK Gov.plc will take some time before its able to dismantle the EU law it does not like…

Its ironic when some argue that EU employment protection law is ‘damaging’ to businesses, yet some argue that the EU is all about the markets and business and not about rights… The fact that zero hours contracts are possible is a much needed correction, but that does not make the rest of legislation wrong… We also need to be careful with differentiating between European Union legislation, and the European Court of Human Rights which can and does challenge that legislation. Ultimately, as I have at least consistently tried to do, I do not doubt there will be some legislature that I cant abide, is wrong for UK etc… BUT that is the same with any UK Government derived legislation, and often it is about compromise. As a stronger player in the EU than we were, we would have been able to get more concessions to suit our environment… yet still benefit from the advantages of centralised legislation and access to the free market.

[Polski_Filip]

The end of the great deception

Nine deceptions in our history with the EU

Neither of these more comprehensive articles are the same as his regular “the stupidity of” or “why are we the only ones doing this?” type commentaries.
I guess someone who is really motivated to debate could dig them up and argue his points. For me as I said they, and the wonky fruit, were bits I recalled but not the key ones. (Stilton Cheese springs to mind and storage of it in a Pub)

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

@Polski_Filip

Stilton Cheese springs to mind and storage of it in a Pub

Thing is the french just ignore it an are in some restaurants happy to keep their non-pasteurised cheese at room temp… but that is a risk especially in a society happy to litigate at first sign of a few quid … the law is simply there again to protect innocent and in some respects the the ‘pub’ and provide a clear ‘chain’ should someone genuinely get ill… so again I stand by what appear to be absurd rules have genuine origins.

I have not read this pieces yet, but would hazard a guess at content given the publications natural stance on the EU… and that is the point - there will always be data and evidence available to support a particular POV on the issue of the EU… for every company that gets a grant to move abroad, they is money available for job creation… its about balance and no one is going to have a full and clear 100% accurate view on that nor the impact it had.

The debate also needs to separate ideology from impact… eg. Do you dislike centralised european government because its just too big to look after local needs, or because of the historic legislation it has passed? Would the perspective on it be different and it made better legislation? Would your perspective be different if MEPs had greater influence than say the commission?

Because ultimately we could ask exactly the same questions about UK wide Government - take the Scots, how many years have they put up with a Government they never elected? Yet many now advocating Brexit, were against Scottish independence (in England - the paradox of the SNP wanting to be part of the EU yet not part of the UK is not lost on me…)

The Greens (ironically) were pro EU, yet for a more decentralised government with greater local powers…

I happen to believe that micro issues (local) need greater local power to resolve - local nuances understood and supported, but that there are macro issues where there is an advantage of a broader more centralised form of Government, especially in a global economy that is a volatile as it is today.

I appreciate we have drifted back to arguments for and against as opposed to implications, but humbly suggest as other have we don’t have a fookin’ clue what those implications will be and that is what is so worrying… because I just dont see how we will deliver economically to sustain the necessary growth and avoid a collapse of of economy… for quite some time. I hope i am wrong, but even if I am, I still feel our ‘divorce’ is a sad thing.

[Saint-or-sinner]

@Polski_Filip

On legislation.
The key was how UK then enacted and enforced rukes/laws. They went so aggressive, armies of enforcers. And yet other countries implemented them less strictly if at all.

Excuse my editing, but this(for me) makes a lot of sense. If you look at it in a way that accepts you can take it two ways, rules/guidelines, then it kind of works. Some things are a given(public protections) and some are more advisory. This country either never got that, or deliberately used it nefariously.
Not implying that all the rules are good, or welcome, just that some have, for a long time, used interpretation for their own ends.

[pap]

You won’t like the two pieces from Booker in the Telegraph, Remainers, for a couple of reasons.

First, they’re pretty much decades long scathing criticism of the secrecy and mendacity involved in the European project, which would seem to invalidate any claim about Heath’s General Election win. He knew this was a political union project up front, and tried to pretend it was a vote on jobs and trade.

Second, it’s all a matter of historical record. Inarguable. Inch by inch, those in the European Union or its forebears have wittingly sought to destroy nation state democracies through the gradual transfer of power over decades.

Sure, it took awhile, but on the positive side, the Panzer budget was quite low.

[Cobham-Saint]

What is a Panzer budget?

Assume you are implying the EU is a Fascist organisation lead by Germany?

At least you didn’t mention Vichy this time.

[Saint-or-sinner]

Ramifications @pap not a history lesson.
Talk about now and the future(reference the past where applicable) please.
No deal, or partial deal(lay out your terms)?

[Saint-or-sinner]

It’s were you spend your whole national budget on shit outdated rubbish. Bit like trying to live in the present on this thread.

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

Yep. There has been decades long misinterpretation, from the faux outrage of absurdity of straight bananas as if this was all there was to it… How dare johnny foreigner interfere with our vegetables… and what do the fookin’ french know about cheese!!!

I do find it a little odd that some might think so many remainers were somehow hoodwinked and have been sold Federal Europe by stealth… I humbly suggest, many are remainers precisely because they see benefits in centralising highly costly ‘duplicated’ ‘services’ such as the forces etc… money that could be better spent on local social services… The challenge was always going to be how to provide more centralised services that make sense, without the mock outrage by the Daily Mail and Telegraph that this was somehow eroding nation states… that sovereignty was the be and end all, despite the whole notion of a nation state being so transient… What next, the desire to reform our empire?

Ok its more conceptual, but borders are in effect artificial anyway… ours perhaps less so, given we are an island… but well we are sort of a mix or celts, vikings, Romans, French, Angles, Saxons (Germans), and now plenty from our former colonies, which is IMHO rather fantastic, but if any nation state should see the benefits of a more integrated society with less borders rather than more, it should be us…

I think its been said many time before, there is still a lot wrong with having an EU that is driven by market forces and in some case the expense of the less well off… but that is nothing new with capitalist government whether centralised or not… its just a matter of having enough influence within it to effect a gradual shift to more equality… If we believe that is easier as ‘nation state’ well of course with the right Government we might have such high and lofty ideals, but without the economic stability, growth, and influence we can achieve nothing, in fact we risk even further inequality no matter how lofty those principles.

Its why I have never seen this issue as simple, or black and white - it never was and never will be.

Anyway… again 'off topic… Implications? Another one has to be the risk of further corruption of our ‘integrated’ peoples - not least the divisions this very vote caused, but in many of the messages it sent out…

oh… and the last time I heard such a crap and crass tank jokes was from the lips of Jeremy Clarkson…

[pap]

No deal before March. A deal afterward if it’s worth it.

And frankly, you can’t do ramifications without knowing what’s come before. And people, suddenly fixated by misshapen fruit, would appear to need the history lesson.

[Saint-or-sinner]

Thank you(i did say where applicable for history).
I get your point about the deal, but isn’t that a big gamble(it’s serious high stakes from my perspective) and if so, how do we protect the people that always take the shit, from dying in even larger numbers(look up the rise since 2010)?
Can’t see the present shambles dealing with it(apart from another tax break for the rich, which the msm will hail as boosting the economy).

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

No deal before march is most likely outcome - which is the Boris and RM plan all along… it will be May’s turn to do a Cameron and disappear as Boris takes over and the Tories to the right… He will then have 3 years or thereabouts to do as he pleases…

Must adit, not sure anyone here is fixated by odd vegetables though, only the absurdity of some of the ‘scare’ stories made up often to undermine the legislative process… after all if Brussels is so silly to be messing with Bananas, how can they be trusted to… blah blah blah…

I did find an interesting vegetable that looked like of a brexiteer though… personally I find that offensive…

[Polski_Filip]

The Brexit vote was inevitable after Maastricht & Lisbon in my opinion.
(And if I recall the treaty names rightly)
I was out of interest in all that stuff back then anyway but I DO recall lectures about it being for the best, refusals of referendums, spin and wailing from the sceptics.
I’m pretty sure Tony signed something in that time. And the msm was split. Democracy and opinion yes. But equally ever since they were signed, realisation of their true meaning. Some believing Booker and that we had been conned, the Tories especially ripped apart by it.

If Only should look back to those events, And it is from that I felt Cameron HAD to show something when he came back with his tail between his legs before the referendum.

It is as much EU fault as our new alt-right society allegations.

ALL in my opinion. And remember I WOULD have voted Leave, and I still think I am the only person on here who could be in real trouble over where my “family” lives come March.

[pap]

The deal Cameron got was actually worse than the one we already had. If memory serves, it was all about temporarily limiting the benefits that EU peeps could get here if they came here, including those they got for their kids.

I’ve long argued that there was no status quo position to take. The Booker pieces alone make a lie of Remain is the status quo. There has never been a status quo, always been a project and the direction in which power flows always goes one way, and that is to Berlin.

Even if Europe had remained satiated in its gains, and was seeking to make no further gains, a vote for Remain wasn’t a vote to stay the same. It was a vote to Remain with Cameron’s pitiful little deal tagged on.

Some will say “hang on, pap. They said they’d be no need for Britain to commit to ever closer union”. That is true, and it sounds very good on paper.

It’s utterly undone by practice. Every time we take on an EU directive which is aimed at homogenising something, we’re engaging in ever closer Union.

The same could also be said for Cameron’s pre-poll referendum of any material change in sovereignty.

All of these statements were made with the sure and certain knowledge that the fix was already in. That the EU had already grabbed enough sovereignty for that not to matter.

And do you know what? They would have gotten away with it, if not for those meddling voters.

[pap]

Given that misshapen produce is supposed to be the whine of choice for Leave, I find it odd that none of that stuff has been bottled by our band of Brexiteers, and that you, personally, mention it most.

Check your recent posts, skip. It is another example, like blue passports before it, that has been imported off the front pages of the Mail and Express by folk that presumably wouldn’t be seen dead with a copy of either.

Oddly enough, it reminded me of Barry Sanchez when he goes on an international shop for the worst Muslim-related practices he can find so he can pretend it’s common place.

He couldn’t find an instance of it in the UK, so he went overseas for sick tales of tangentially related FGM.

So I’d like to ask, for the benefit of the thread, when it was that you ever saw a Sotonian Brexiteer moan about straight bananas or blue passports? I can’t ever remember it happening, and while I’ve been lax elsewhere on this site, my attention on this one has been rapt.

If that hasn’t happened, I’d like to know why you feel their mention a worthy inclusion in the debate?

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

INo one has moaned silly boy, it was merely a little light hearted banter in response to a post from DP… never let it be said that we don’t have a sense of humour in all this … if you can’t post a picture of a potato that looks like a cock in an Internet forum, then I am not sure life is worth living… it’s what the internet was invented for innit… or was that Esther in That’s Life… I can’t remember

If you want to make a big issue and score a few irrelevant points from it go ahead and act like a potato

[pap]

Good. So that’s straight bananas and blue passports covered.

Can we cover some more, please?

As the two stalwart battlers of this thread, could you point to examples where I have shown support for the tactics, political “ideologies” or claims of Messrs Farage, Johnson and those further to the right that support Brexit?

And for the record, people can always post pictures of penis-shaped vegatalia on this site. I just don’t because I worry folk will think it’s a self-portrait.

[Map-Of-Tasmania]

I am glad we able to post vegetables of interesting shapesin this thread… it really is a weight off my mind that I had not transcended the expected levels of decency…

Anyway, I am not sure anyone on here in some 3500 odd posts has ever suggested you follow the ideology of those cunts you mention… indeed I think most including myself have at times applauded the fact that you voted with your own ideology… what I and some others have been critical of is that whilst it’s founded On High ideals it is unfortunately a tad difficult to implement in this quagmire of modern economics… I have also questioned the issue of sovereignty… because those that are compelled by it, are only ever able to defend that POV by saying look how those evil twats I the EU tried to force this or that on us… I am still waiting to hear what they have forced on us that is so terrible apart from very bland looking potatoes… what is Britain if we can’t enjoy the smut and double entrendre associated with rude veg… our humour is built on it… everyone loves a good carry on film don’t they?

The ramifications of what this country narrowly voted for will not be truely known for 2-10 years… but I will repeat my question from earlier as I think it is relevant to the ramifications… is there a threshold of social decay that would make you change your mind and admit it was a
Mistake, or would you stick by those principles no matter how it fucked up folks lives?

I only ask as there is a threshold that will make me change mine … that if an end to childhood poverty, social justice, and strong and vibrant UK economy yet still with close ties to our European partners as opposed to a slave to The US and all the shit they stand for… inuding a free degree of movement to allow folks opportunity to better their lot - that is after all a good socialist principle… for me that is what is important… not where the government sits that brings this about…

Ultimately, that is my POV… I don’t care who governs or where they govern from, I am only interested in the results and implications for all folks … including the poor in other countries, not just here. The EU is far from ideologically pure… it’s invested with selfish cunts hellbent in self interest and political gain… no different from Westminster in any guise, but it does give us better economic stability and opportunity which if we are able to influence correctly, reduces the risk of a shitty life for the poorest in he U.K…