I guess you’re referring to the U.K. as the one who can’t decide or give a suggestion.
You are joking, I take it?
Pretty much every line that May has taken has been rejected out of hand.
There is reality and there is fantasy.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of the latter, but I’m always going to for the likes of Tolkien over half-remembered accounts of the last two years.
Ha ha ha, good joke there mate. This shambles of a government can’t decide on anything. And as your favourite comedian and his partner used to say, what they have asked for is the Moon on a Stick.
The EU has been obstructive first to last. It has described things as impossible when in reality, its proponents just want to make the process of leaving unbearable for anyone else. It has used the security of Ireland as a bargaining chip.
May has been hopeless, as we knew she would be. If she cannot face Jeremy Corbyn in a one on one debate, fuck knows how she’s coped. She probably hasn’t.
Doesn’t really matter which person was at the helm. The EU would have pushed for its own project interests and punished the UK regardless.
Still, you’ve got to see the positives of a no deal Brexit. The Conservatives have been shown to be utterly incompetent, and the EU won’t have a glove on us.
Lol, positives? Return to a hard border in Ireland? Trade becoming a nightmare? Either companies abandoning the U.K. or us competing on low/zero taxation? Hip hip hooray. I can barely wait…
And why wouldn’t they be obstructive? We’re the ones fucking off. They’ve got their requirements for a deal and if we can’t meet them (which it looks like we can’t) then hard luck.
Still, you and your pals Rees-Mogg and Farage look like you’ll get your wish. Well done. Perhaps in 50 years time we’ll see some benefit.
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I’m not going to argue with your doomsday predictions, @Bathsaint. I’ll just wait until this time, next year, when the racist impoverished dystopia you’re touting, like all the other dystopias, has turned out to be false. I’m a more patient man now. I can wait, and I fancy my chances.
The last time we traded with the world at large across all markets, we had a surplus balance of payments. This is the sort of thing the Treasury used to report.
The immediate benefit will be more power to the British voter. No Remainer has disputed the listed secretions of voter power to the European Union. No Remainer can deny that Lisbon was a total anti-democratic stitch-up. A constitution, rejected by any electorate it was put in front of, implemented in all but name by treaty.
At this point, I’d be all for quitting the treaty altogether, but our government has been ineffective and feckless. If it were down to me, I’d pay them fuck all too. We’ve been a net contributor, every year. I would also have made every EU citizen living here, and their immediate families, British citizens, so there’s that.
Corbyn seems to be the only person in politics with a plan right now. Make more stuff here, basically. Well, duh. That was kind of the point.
Realistically, all that is going to happen is that we’re going to have to stop relying on unskilled labour from overseas, and that we’ll have access to a wider market. We’ll still be siphoning the second best of the world from everywhere, or the best of those with a grudge against the Americans.
We are a market of around 70m people in a compact, easy to get to area, that speaks and invented English.
If you genuinely believe no one is going to be interested in supplying or benefiting that market, I’m genuinely shocked, and worried about the calibre of my apparent political co-travellers.
I genuinely believe in the collective capabilities of this country. I think we’ve had fucking shit leaders, but I meet a lot of people, black, white, brown - from all parts of society. As a contractor, I changed jobs more than most, been to more places than most. I’ve even been lucky enough to go to the US on so many occasions I’ve now lost count. They’re supposed to be the best in the world, but they’re plagued with problems we just don’t have.
I like us, @Bathsaint. I back us. For the avoidance of any doubt, “us” is every person on this island. We are utterly shit right now, because we’ve still got shit leaders. If we get someone like Corbyn in, who is passionate about having a strong domestic economy, I genuinely think historians might pore over it as a game-changer.
See, I think this sort of thing is dangerous on this thread, @Bathsaint.
@pap clearly has different rationale for wanting Brexit and seeing benefits from a hard Brexit.
Lumping @pap in with those two, although you can certainly defend the point, is likely to get an escalated reaction.
Just trying to keep this thread open for good debate. Feel free to find your own path.
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Seriously, @pap, would have expected anything else?
The punishment angle, I’m not sure it’s that. You could be right, but certainly making an example of us is on their agenda. It’s a house of cards otherwise.
But again, we sort of knew this.
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The last time we traded with the world at large across all markets, we had a surplus balance of payments. This is the sort of thing the Treasury used to report.
The last time we traded with the world at large across all markets we actually still manufactured goods that the world wanted - thanks to years of underinvestment and trade union excess in the 60s and 70s we no longer do… we are a service based economy, we manufacture fuck all
I am interested in knowing how many years it will take until we have produce a enough good that are in sufficiently high demand to get a surplus balance of payments… I suspect Corbyn is shitting it as he has no fucking clue how to get there either…
you seem to think its a simple case of turning in teh machines again and suddenly we are exporting a shit load of high value goods - oh and doubt this time there are many countries we used to exploit and own who will be happy to take them…
You do realise the rest of your post reads like a Daily mail editorial dont ya? ‘no longer relying on unskilled labour from abroad…’’ Fuck all that was missing was a rousing fucking chorus of Land of hope and Glory - Most of the foreign labour i have come across is pretty darn skilled, works fucking hard and have been a credit to their home counties… but then again you dont subscribe to what many economists do that such migratory talent actually leads to wage INFLATION long term as productivity goes up, competitiveness goes up, labour force is forced to up its game and the cycle continues… but much easier to stop them coming in and return to our home grown ‘talent’… the builders who simply do not show up or do a shit job and work 5 hours then fuck off for a week… and that might sound like a stereotypical view, but its been a common theme during 4 houses I have owned from Kent, Sussex, Oxfordshire and Scotland…
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I can follow the logic of all that, @pap. My question (rhetorical - unless you have the answer) is how long will it take to transition us from a member of the EU to a no-deal economy outside a now-hostile trading bloc - given that we may not be able to simply fall back to WTO terms either.
Under duress, Rees Mogg has put a figure of 50 years, let’s say half that. Fuck it, let’s say half of that and round up - 13 years. To see us as a strong player on a worldwide stage.
In the intervening 13 years, what will happen to our exchange rate? What will happen to interest rates? What will happen to employment?
Even a small, negative fluctuation in any of those metrics and we’re all in for a rough ride - with those at the bottom of our society in for the roughest.
For these reasons, I don’t believe any politician would lead us into such risk without committing political suicide. I think we’ll do anything we can to get a deal and it risks being the absolute worst of both worlds.
Not beating you up for your choice. Not marking the differences between us. Not expecting us to find common ground or a solution. Just sharing my concerns.
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That is part of the Brexit problem… it has indeed created very strange bedfellows and opinion is presented as fact though by some… eg, Pap likes to present a fact the 5million Labour voters who won Brexit … I would suggest it could just as easily be the 4 mil who regularly read the (hate) Mail, or Sun or other right wing rag full of lies about the impact of migrants, and other xenophobic shit.
Maybe I am wrong in this, but I could not follow any path that the likes of Johnson, Gove Farage, Rees Moog, the BNP, EDL or whatever do, even if I felt it was right… because whatever else I would eb doing wit would be giving those fuckers exactly what they hoped for and that is simply irreconcilable
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Cor, it’s shaping up to a night of verbal fisticuffs and/or flouncing on this thread
I’m off…
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That’s about right. Those at the bottom will feel it more than any and those at the top will all profit.
strong text
How did we get to this point?
Yes @pap i do believe a sensible government could have taken us out fully without the shit that’s going to come(bonfire of regulations is just the start).
I also noticed you said you’d be alright. Think about that.
If “you” doesn’t include the vulnerable, good argument.
Yeah, I’ve considered the simplistic argument of “Well if x, y and z wanted it, it must be bad”.
But it really is too simplistic.
Nazis and liberals will both try to overturn a death penalty for a racist murderer in the US. Both want the same end - to stop the death penalty, but both for very different reasons.
Just because we shuffled into the same booth doesn’t mean we see the world the same.
That said, it would give me pause for thought if I thought I was putting an X where racists and xenophobes are putting theirs. I’m sure our Brexit voters on here had to wrestle with their conscience before voting.
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Just getting warmed up Cobs… had a nice Malbec Gran Reserva and now on a few G=Ts before a decent Laphroaig 18…
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Just watching Breaking Bad (S2) for ideas on how to keep my head above water come Brexit
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I knew you someone might bring up that argument. Point is that IMHO, this whole mess was brought about not out of some deep rooted belief in improving the lot of our poor and venerable , but because of the selfish greed for power and wealth of a few cunts who saw an opportunity… the same opportunities that led BNP to council success in poverty stricken Northern towns where the weak are the easy target…
Of course many brexiteers i am sure believed in honourable intentions, but what are they? Sovereignty is only worth something if it delivered prosperity, if not, can we say its worth it really? Its not as if teh EU is a repressive regime keeping us in misery and poverty is it? We have our own Government doing that quite successfully… Earlier its was presented as FACT that the EU had taken over agriculture fish, … policy etc… which was the whole point of the union… develop a common policy to avoid over production, wastage or surplus - sure it means we gain in some areas and lose in others, but that is better than losing in all… which I sadly suspect we will… 50 years says Moog… Jesus fucking Christ, no idea what that is based on or if its likely but the fact he seems prepared to go ahead despite that possibility says all you need to know about what a cunt he is - after all his new investment fund is set up in the ROI so he is alright…
Ultimately the reasons we voted as we did mean fuck all. If it goes tits up we know who to blame irrespective of the morality or ideology that led folks to their decisions… but those cunts that drove this were only ever doings o for themselves, and I would have hoped that that in itself would have led others with stronger moral convictions to be more circumspect…
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The really hilarious thing about this debate is that pap is exposed as an extreme right winger whilst pretending to be a socialist, standing shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Rees Mogg, Boris, Redwood and the rest of them. As i said, fucking hilarious.
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I voted in full possession of those facts. I’ve often described it as the worst gym club in history, inspired by the legally-driven avarice of many gym companies.
If memory serves, I think there were ministers from several countries in the EU that told us, pre-referendum, that this would be a tactic.
The great disconnect, something Cameron and the rest of the EU never got, and Remainers still don’t get, are the unmoveables.
- How do you get people, that know what democracy is, on your side?
- How do you convince people, that are skint, indebted, starving, or all of the above, that things are going to get much worse?
- What about them people, that still remember a time before the Common Market?
- What about them people trying to work, competing with Eastern European graduates, for unskilled work?
Maybe some of those people were moveable, but certainly not without some flexibility from the EU, which just didn’t happen, and certainly not with the counter-productive arguments it was making.
Classic Example
Remainer : If we leave the EU, the EU will do this.
Leaver : Well maybe if the EU can do this, we shouldn’t be fucking part of he EU.
And never the twain shall meet.
So I am a contemptible thick public school racist cunt.
Another day, another name.
If the hat fits…
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