:brexit: Brexit - The Ramifications

Nope, I’m merely reiterating a theme that I’ve discussed several times before.

That affluence, or the lack of it, drove much of either side of the vote. That’s why no-one believes your scare stories about people getting so much poorer, because they already were.

That’s why I have difficulty accepting your ideas of the symbolism involved in being a member of the EU. It smacks of someone holding onto the abstract because they have no idea of what reality is.

You don’t see the problems because you’ve never been near them.

… You know nothing about me, my life or whatever struggles I have faced so to make such assumptions is what shows you dont give a flying fuck about people really, despite your rhetoric… just your narrow and rather blinkered doctrine… you chose to believe your own bullshit because it suits your agenda, nothing more.

@areloa-grandee comment “… You know nothing about me, my life or whatever struggles I have faced…” gets forgotten when we spout off / pontificate on here. It’s all too easy to be an armchair warrior / troll when you don’t have a clue about, or even don’t care about who may be reading

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The joys of internet chat forums Cobham.

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Absolutely SOG

It’s not for lack of trying to get you down the pub.

I’m not assessing your life history, guv. What you’ve admitted yourself is that you can afford to send your kids to an independent school at presumably great cost, a service that is provided free by the state.

You live in a country where it was reported that 16m have less than £100 in their bank accounts.

It’s not unreasonable to assume relative affluence in those circumstances, just as its not unreasonable to assume that a professional like yourself probably doesn’t know too much about the lower end of the wage spectrum.

Please correct me if I’m wrong. If you’ve worked alongside minimum wage people recently, I would be happy to hear your account.

…my dad left school at 16 and joined the army as a squaddie in the Royal Engineers. Go find out how much they earned in the mid 60s… he did that as he had to help out his parents as my grandad had broken his back in a fall and could not work… to help pay the council house rent. My dad married a 19 year old German girl in 66 who came from equally humble stock - her father died in '70 aged only 54 crippled with RA possibly accelerated by the 2 years it took him to walk back from Siberia after being POW having been shot in the shoulder on the Russian Frot in 1944.

My dad spent 22 year in teh engineers finsishing as a Warrant Officer 1 and leaving the army in 1984 - he struggled to finsd a job for nearly 8 months at a time when my parents had were only 2 years into their first mortgage and interest rates went up to 15%… we were close to repocession. I was reasonably smart had passed the selection tests and went to the local Grammar (in Kent) - not some posh gothic place but a 1950 purpose built technical high school as it was called that had kids from the bread line to the very well off… we still had plenty of nights of beans on toast… better than a nice girl in my class whos mum killed herself after murdering her abusinve husband.

Worst happened to me when night before first A levels, when my dad never came home - police called around 3am having found him in his car in a field, hose from exhaust into window. He was in hosital. later we found out he had been made redundent almost 8 months previously and had struggled with depression, but had got into debt trying to keep us all going… he survived, but after fucking up my exams, I left to work in a lab earning 3k a year 70% of which went to pay my parents mortgage… I resat my exams and did enough to into St Andrews (I wanted to get as far away as possible). Dad got a job in Devon and parents got back on an even keel but could not afford to help top up the last few years of small grant so had to take stutent loans which were new at the time… Had a great time, met future Mrs AG, who just after graduation decided to go and develop leukemia…
shit happens

I had a job in London that left me with about £700 a month after tax… shitty flat in teh eastend was £380, Travel card as it was then £110… bills, food and fortnightly trips to Edinbrugh on the red eye cheap coach on a Friday after work meant bigger overdraft…

Got married, and moved to Oxfordshire working in medical communications, mrs as an academmic secretary at the university… as a result of chemo and radiotherapy at the age of 22, we could not have the family we wanted… spent 7 years doing cycles of IVF requiring egg donation, so we had to pay more… every spare penny for 7 years until eventully we got lucky and our daughter was born. The best fucking thing in the world.

I worked my arse off to do the best i could, and have in the last 10 years worked my way to good position. Well forgive me if I dont give a flying fuck what anyone thinks of private education, but all we were intereseted in was in making sure she got the best start we could give her and with loacl state comps here having some of the worst academic records we decided to do what we did… sacraficing other things most likely our own longer term security and retireent - OUR choice.

I have never pretened to be hard up or hard done by, but I have had just about enough of fucking assumptions as if I should be ashamed of my choices. Life is too fucking short, and its why all the jingoistic, nationalistic blue passport waving fucktards who think that sovereignty is more important than living within a system that lets poor people from other countries take opportunities to better their lives are just wrong IMHO. The EU might be a selfserving bloated undemocratic heap of shit for all I care… if it provides opportunity through freedom of movement, it will always get my vote. The selfserving, bloated undemocratic heap of shit is no different from Westminster… just in a different location, and it would be no different under Corbyn…

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@areloa-grandee - much respect for entering all of that into the annals of Sotonians. I love people that share. I try to as well.

Respectfully though, that’s not really germane to the question I asked or the assumptions I made. My specific questions were about your recent experience with the lower end of the wage spectrum.

I’ve upvoted you because of your willingness to open up, but am unsatisfied in terms of my inquiry. I do think it significant as well, largely because I was insulated as you appear to be from your posts until I started a new job last year. It was a real eye opener for me.

I know that on a _symbolic _level, freedom of movement is a beautiful concept. In reality, people use that freedom to move to places where opportunities are better than their domestic situation.

The empire building in Eastern Europe instantly created several countries’ worth of economic migrants. Freedom of movement has been a fantastic thing for most of them, but realistically, does the same apply in reverse? I know our scions _can _go to live and work in Europe under EU rules, but how many do? Certainly not as many as come here. The deficit is in the order of millions, and much of our ex-pat community is retired.

Statistically, Brits are more likely to leave for Australia, the US, New Zealand than France or Germany. Also, skilled labour can always move, as can anyone looking to set up a business. How have opportunities been reduced for UK kids with wholesale freedom of movement taken off the table?

I’ll probably regret this. I say I will keep out of this bloody tedious thread. Must do better.

Surely this forum is about taking things from elsewhere and going ‘oh look at this!’ isn’t funny, silly, annoying, stupid. What do you guys think’?

I don’t think people who voted no to leave are particularly smug (but then I am biased) but sometimes I think people who said yes to leave are a bit smug. Isn’t it weird how we see things differently?

Completely agee with the last sentence. It’s a whole load of ridiclous ‘debate’ on this thread.

But if you want to debate with someone who you have opposing views to you could try out this app which someone I met in Cuba 10 years ago co-developed.

https://about.bridger-app.com/

“Bridger is a debate platform, motivating curious people to explore and challenge opinions. It’s an easy way to engage, anonymously and one on one, with people unlike you.”

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Like Tinder?

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Nah, you won’t regret it. You probably know where I’m coming from better than most. We speak about these things when we see each other, even if we’re not in complete agreement.

On a general level, I wonder how much is advanced by the nigh-McCarthyist tactics we’ve seen to push the Remain argument. I’m not around as much I’d like to be these days, but I am the most prolific supporter of the case for Brexit. This is one of the few threads that I regularly keep on top of.

Is the Remain case on Sotonians genuinely reduced to blue passport arguments imported from elsewhere?

Sad to say, @pap I get the feeling* that most people feel debating on this thread is pointless, and that your request for people to advance the Remain argument is simply so that you can spend a lot of time and energy telling them how wrong they are**.

It’s pointless.

It’s certainly why I tend to keep away from this thread.

*It’s a sense I have and not a fact.

**And vice versa.

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Hey! How’s it going y’all. :lou_lol:

Corbyn has fired his shadow NI secretary for calling for a 2nd EU referendum. Just saying.

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With the greatest of respect, bletch - I disagree. The pro-Remain arguments on this site have largely reflected the ones in the media and those propagated by the government. They’re fear-based.

I think that the real problem with dealing with my points on this thread are that many of the actions of the EU are indefensible from people that would like to term themselves democrats, or left-wing.

When the EU wrote its constitution, it tried to enshrine the EU Commission as a permanent unelected body in a constitutional document governing all member states.

When France and the Netherlands both rejected that in referenda, it simply repurposed all of that legislation into treaty legislation, avoiding the need to get the buy-in from the public. The Irish briefly protested, but were made to vote again until they got it right.

When Greece voted in a left-wing government wanting a rational solution to the debt crisis, the ECB limited cashflow to the country until it got its own way, not even the first time that democracy had been replaced by the EU to serve its institutions.

At the time of writing, the AfD are the official opposition in Germany, the Freedom Party are in coalition in Austria, while the bullet dodged during the recent French presidential elections will resurface, at speed. The British voter has no power to change that, but under the EU, an obligation to be politically unified with those an increasingly right leaning Europe is bringing to power.

Those sort of dealbreakers are pretty difficult to crack, which is why we get the imported blue passport argument from the comment threads of the Sun, Daily Mail, Express and some vague notion of rabies on the Beeb :lou_facepalm_2:

Popular lad, Owen :lou_sunglasses:

Like I said, @pap , it’s pointless.

We seemingly can’t even agree on my opinion for not posting on this thread.

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I am not talking about the reason you’re not posting on this thread.

That was more a general comment about the dealbreakers made and have been glossed over or ignored.

I know full well you’re not posting on this thread because you don’'t want the pair of us to fall out, but I think it unnecessary. I have every reason to believe this would be an interesting conversation rather than a ruck.

I do wonder, given our broadly similar political leanings and outlook, whether you’re going to squeeze through all of the elephants in the room. The previously pro-EU version of me certainly wasn’t able to.

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Hey Pap, I think Bletch is right

You’re better off spending your energy arguing the case on other sites. I know this is your site and a lot of us are a great disappointment to the Brexit cause but hey, ho, the remainers like it here and ain’t going away…

:lou_wink_2:

I will not abandon the sceptred isle of Sotonians to the likes of you, Cobham Saint :lou_sunglasses:

We will do our own trade deals, and stand tall in them!

I’m in the final stages of a deal where we swap Barry Sanchez for Alpine Saint.

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