Woah…steady on there Pap!
Yeah tbf there are issues with pensions but at least there is now the PFP so everyone will get at least 90% of what they expected - not like the poor equitable life buggers.
But aren’t you arguing from a point of how you think things should be rather than what they are in the here and now? And dare I say it, a little like Brexit as well? (that’s for Chutters as well)
Who ends up paying for that when companies go under? It’s us.
Again, you’re using a bad system to justify a bad system, which is always going to encourage firms in trouble to pluck funds from a pension fund, which other parts of the system, namely us, have to recoup if those people are ever going to get their dues.
How much has the pension protection fund got? Wouldn’t it be easier for government to collect and control all the money, so firms are not tempted to break open the cookie jar? It’s a welcome band aid, but it’s a band aid nonetheless, and may not be sufficient if a sufficient number of firms go under.
I think this all depends on the reasons for ones stance. If the way I voted was only based on me being convinced that economically we were better off in the EU and then REAL evidence said otherwise, then rational thought would demand a change of POV. I mean real evidence though not yet another video from 1973 produced by the side that were against the EU talking about policy in an economy of 1973… which has fuck all relevence to 2018+, or some wishful thinking as we dont need to listen to experts as we have had enough of them… but then again my stance on the EU has never beeen about what is better for ‘UKPLC’ - its never been about what is best for Britain or not, as I dont really give a flying fuck about what is best for any ‘nation’, it should be about what we can achieve for a more collective good.
I believe in what I do because of what it represents philosophically and welcome the freedoms that come with it. I acknowledge its not yet mature enough to clearly demonstrate its value and that includes all the democractic challenges it faces - which to me are a symptom of trying to use a system to please 20 + countries many of which are themselves relatively new democracies, desperate for economic evolution. There are a shit load of problems across the continent as there are here, and no one has any real evidence to suggest that we will resolve ours quicker and better out of the EU than in, whatever some Left winger said in 1973 - the same folks who really made an impact on our economy then… with 3 day weeks and strikes all over the place.
I happen to believe we stand a better chance within a broader community, not a narror one especially in a country where Boris Johnson is more likely to the running the show than Pap’s pal Corbyn… As with the US, we see what isolationism and fear bring about - the cult of the racist, ignorant and selfish cunt… we will get the same here as the ‘will of the people’ has spoken and its the will of those people who are fearful of cultural shift and union… its happening all over place, but to suggest its in the EU and not here is as naive as it is misinfomed. Collectively we stand a better chance of defeating that kind of shit… walking away from it and forgetting its on our own doorstep is just ridiculours iMHO.
Post Brexit, UKwill align itslef with anyone willing to do a deal with us - irrespective of what kind of cunts they are and with less EU restrictions, I am sure we will see closer ties with the US… Saudi and other places we seem to enjoy trading with ignoring any moral or ethical code… instead of being actively at the heart of Europe helping bring about gradual integration and cultural shift of new European partners.
I know there is also shit load of ethical and moral crap within the EU as well, no one is that naive, but Brexiteers taking a moral high ground on that front obviously dont get irony given the issues within our own ‘democratic’ institutions and with our own politicians- have we forgooten the all party expenses scandal? There is plenty of shit within our own house yet it seems swept under the carpet when arguing about the corruption or ‘unelected’ nature of EU Beaurocrats
Anyone who works and travels and has relatives within the EU values the freedom of movement, both practically and what it represents as a right - those that dont, probably still dont have a passport, or only visit those places where you can get a full fry up, Sky and a good English cup of tea… maybe a harsh sterotype, but there are plenty of little englenders who want sun without the local culture… yet expect immigrants and those coming ere for work to accept and adopt our culture of fuck off?
I just dont think this country is a very nice place right now and a lot of that has to do with the fact that weare heading in the same direction as Trumpsville as opposed to trying to follow what is best in our own and in our EU neighbours for our cultural and political evolution.
Finally and perhaps more controversially… even IF I felt that economically we were better off out, iF I belived that greater local autonomy was better for our citizens, If I felt there was never a chance that we might see an end to the the corruption within the commission… sorry, but I could never bring myself to align with voting with Farage, Johnson, Gove UKIP, BNP, EDL and those cunts - with most politicians and parties there is usually something they believe in that you can say you agree with despite an idiological difference- but NOTHING anyothe these twats has ever said suggests there is anything I could agree on. … except when BOris said he believed in Europe only 12 months before hes said he did not…
“…Again, you’re using a bad system to justify a bad system,…”
But I’m not doing that at all, all I’m doing is offering a few opinions (& not necessarily my own btw) which are now clearly diametrically opposed to your world view. Your responses should be to demonstrate an understanding about what we are discussing, not a simple “you are wrong and I’m right” approach - that’s schoolyard.
I’m not having a dig at you in all this btw.
Sorry, in response to your comment:
“…What’s wrong with a decent state pension?..”
Absolutely nothing & it grieves me the isn’t one.
BUt our ‘culture ’ of being unwilling to pay higher tax for higher levels of service and social care is historic - ‘tax and spend’ is even seenasadirty word despite it being effectively what happensin more enlightened Norther European countries… Its a cultural thing that Thatcher was so successful of tapping into - providing teh illusion that working classes would be beter off paying less Income tax…and more duties/VAT etc as tehy tehn had a ‘Choice’ on what they spend their money on… wiinning viotes by giving the ‘ordinary working man’’ more money in his pocket, by spending less on everything…
We simply wont vote for a tax and spend party in this country,despite the obvious logic of doing so…but all that has fuck all to do with the EU where state pensions are much better in themore mature economies… (like ours? )
My personal bugbear is the Personal Tax Allowance. The increases in threshold are always big stories. We’ve taken more people out of tax, they say. Its actually a universal tax break, normally a few quid a week to the taxpayer. Its billions out of the exchequer each year.
The problem is that the forces driving neoliberalism cornered both ends of the market when Blair was installed after John Smith’s death. Red or blue didn’t matter. Privatisation was inevitable either way.
We ended up with a Labour government continuing Thatcherite ideology, not because it was necessarily a believer, but because senior figures wanted to keep in with business, and the accounting prestidigitation made for good political optics.
We’ve seen this week the danger of placing faith in the private sector. I agree with Corbyn that this is a watershed moment. Corillian did jack shit on their own. They were a middleman trousering large sums, reliant on subcontractors, whom they settled invoices on a 120 day basis. Many SMEs are owed millions, and will likely go under. The white man van set that they pay won’t get paid. The ripple effect is going to be enormous, affecting the sort of people that vote Conservative.
The EU has its part to play in this. Under its directives, governments usually have to go for the cheapest tender for service provision. Corillian simply put in bids that none could beat, and they couldn’t actually deliver.
Theresa May is on the ropes i think. The government is disintegrating before our eyes. Tory Minister Claire Perry referring ‘swivel eyed’ hard Brexiters, David Davis showing us all, with his excruciating performance in front of the select committee, that he is totally incompetent, hasn’t got a clue what he is doing. Rumours are that you can forget it after the bars are open.
Gina Miller is a brave lady, threatening to take on the Government in the courts over the Bung to the DUP, she is absolutely right too, i think she would have a good chance of winning if the law is applied correctly. The DUP have some deeply unpleasant friends. And i’m not talking about the Tory Party.
Yes, what a brave former hedge fund manager Gina Miller is.
Arf.
Have the Tories actually paid any money to the DUP yet? I mean real money not “Of course you can have it” money.
The public position is that the full amount is for Northern Ireland, and is contingent on power sharing being reinstituted at Stormont.
Fuck knows what’s gone on behind the scenes, but there’s plenty of previous to suggest that something underhand is going on, some of it making a simple bung of a billion for votes look like a legitimate democratic decision.
upvote alert, upvote alert
So the secret survey into the effect of leaving the EU is not good. Who’d have thunk it?
Are we still doing Brexit?
Sounds like a jolly bad idea if you ask me.
It was really good to have had you post on here, gwc.
Pap will be along in a little while to chase you from the forum or at least make you back up your Brexit assertion with facts before then chasing you from the forum.
Standby.
Ha!
I will clarify my positon then.
I didn’t vote in the referendum. I don’t make a habit of not voting you understand, I just didn’t feel qualified to be voting on this particular subject, in fact I don’t believe the general public in it’s majority was qualified. The MP’s are literally paid to make such decisions.
So when the referendum happened I was neither here not there.
But. Now we are stuck with it and it sounds like a disaster. I’m all for democracy and 49% of me believes, we voted for it so we are stuck with it, but 51% thinks it is utter madness to push through with something that sounds so utterly miserable. The PM could call another referendum of course, and I’ve not doubt the result would be over turned, but she is on thin ice as it is and that would be the end of her, so like all politicians, she will watch the country fall off the edge of a cliff to serve herself.
Still, we will have those exclusively British Blue Passports to look forward to, mine will match my Ukrainian fiancee’s…
gwc has every right to be concerned. He wouldn’t want all the tax he’s paying to be wasted on that EU divorce bill.
@goatboy They’ve just impleneted VAT in Dubai. I’ve had to let one of the maids go. It’s a disgrace.
I’m marrying an EU Foreigner in March also. Are you doing it just to get an EU Green Card post brexit?
Edit: Me neither
Edit2: Wait, is Ukraine even EU? You might have fucked up!