So does our dog…not nice. 
Paging this to Davo and Bojo. They’re in a tight spot right now. This could be the breakthrough bit of crystal clear Brexit analysis and insight that prevents them, and by extension us, from becoming Barnier’s blackmailed bottom bitches.
You’ve done a great service to your country.
Well, its not fucking hard, is it?
It’s just not desirable.
No disrespect to @areloa-grandee for the truculent way he tackles his posts. His time in foreign lands saw him get kicked to bits by the Turkish. Who could blame him for wanting to give a fellow poster a bit of a Busst in a reply?
Believe it or not, even I am capable of what they refer to in the trade as a “not so sly Beckham”.
It’s not my usual game, and despite scandalous exaggerations to the contrary, I’m not that type of player.
Interesting piece on the potential effects of Common Market membership before we joined.
Interesting read
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Now this could be amusing - if the ECJ guarentees the freedom of movement rights of Brits abroad, deftly pinching that little bargaining chip out of the hands of Barnier.
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After spending a few weeks debating with these #fbpe people on Twitter, I have the following observations. I trust our ardent Remainers will not be too upset.
First, here’s a very short piece I did on Medium, which lays out my concerns on their prime objective, to get the result of the 2016 referendum overturned.
Next, I think Blair has put them up to it, whether they know that or not. There is more criticism on Corbyn than any other political figure put together.
For this reason, I have started referring to them as Tony Blair’s Flying Monkeys.
I would hazzard a guess ( and happy to admit that this is speculation) that the number folks to oppose EU membership in pure ideological grounds aligned to specific principles is relatively small.
I suspect there are some who are opposed to EU membership not because of the idea but because of the flaws in it as an institution - a relatively young institution that struggles at times to try accommodate a variety of expectation and half committed nations…
There are probably a ton of folk opposed because of a single ill informed piece of propaganda that they believe to critical to the UK’s security and sovereignty… (No… Brexit will ‘not keep the Muslims out’)
There are those who genuinely simply believe we are better off economically with greater freedom if we go it alone and negotiate independent trade deals ( good luck with that one)
there are no doubt plenty of little Englenders who just feel we are better than those jumped up johnney foreigners trying to tell us what to do…
There is probably one that would argue some political doctrine from 1970’s party perspective as to the dangers of the the EU menace…
But for many it’s simply much more practical. There IS an issue of rights whether to existing locals or perhaps more importantly our future rights being sadly more restricted than those we currently have. As a whinging remainer I feel Most aggrieved that my rights have been fucked over by some little Englanders , some ill informed propaganda believing twats. The rest I can acknowledge as a right to their opinion even if its unpalatable imho…
those folks looking for a ECJ ruling safe guarding their rights are doing a fine thing… as if it goes in their favour it may yet open the door for those I. The UK also seeking a continuation of their current rights post Brexit? As we are currently living in an EU country and this’s have rights to freedom of movement which as individuals we could argue we should retain. I wont hold my breath, but if possible it would certainly soften the fucking blow…
SNP amendment to ensure Britain remains in the Single Market fails. Third reading of the EU Withdrawal bill passes.
I find your post interesting.
It implies a number of interesting things.
More than anything else, I am interested in how you became immune to propaganda
Not sure where I have ever suggested I am immune to propaganda… I dont believe the EU machine is without quite institutionalised flaws, but I certainly dont believe that leaving will 'keep us any more ‘secure’ as a nation, nor in 365mil for the NHS, nor that immigration is the root cause of wage supression and a masive drain on our social institutions when we already have regulations to safeguard against it… All these things can be researched and a POV formed on balance of available evidence. Nor do I follow any one political doctrine on the subject. …
That’s why I focused on the implications. Your analysis of the situation focused on the side that voted for Leave, which kinda implies one side was propagandised, and the other was not.
The problem with the evidence based approach is there is no precedent for leaving the European Union. We know what it was like never to have been a member. We did rather better on the trade front than we manage now, at least with the core of eight nations that Heath signed us up to.
The reality is that the EU has control over a huge area of policy, including agricultural policy, The consequence is that the power of your vote to effect change as a citizen is diminished.
Just a thought - for both AG and Pap, seeing as this seems to be your personal Brexit beef thread…and nothing has changed in the week since I last looked
How cast iron is your conviction that your argument is right and 100% correct?
Would either of you be willing to concede ground if a new piece of information came to light that cast a shadow on your own position / theories?
Western science in the middle ages was stifled because everyone believed te “self-evident truths” of the bible. Isn’t something similar going on with Brexit?
Perhaps we arent quite as enlightened as we like to think.
Asking for a friend…
I try not to speculate when facts are available.
The last post was a decent example. The Common Agricultural Policy is a fact of EU life. It’s not some projection, and has been extant for over forty years. It means ceding an extremely important area of policy to an unelected body. It cannot be changed in Westminster, and the EU Parliament cannot propose amendments.
People have been paid not to farm, and some of those people are not even people, or would be interested in farming in the first place. They just own a shitload of arable land that they weren’t going to farm anyway, and get a taxpayer bung for the burden of owning a lot of land.
Step forward famous farmers United Utilities, the water, electricity and gas company.
“…Step forward famous farmers United Utilities, the water, electricity and gas company…”
Who on balance of probabilities have large institutional share holders who include insurers who manage some / if not all of the funds for your retirement pension and rely on said utilities paying a return so you don’t have to eat cat food in your retirement
A right conundrum eh?
No, it really isn’t.
United Utilities are not farmers.
They have monopolies on water in several parts of the country.
They should not be being paid not to farm.
It’s fucking obscene.
Don’t disagree Pap, but it’s the reality.
I don’t see Labour standing any sort of chance of being elected if they start to fuck around with it. Regardless of everyone’s red-credentials a hit on potential retirement income will have everyone running to the nasty party
So voters are going to desert Labour in droves if it announces it will stop the practice of giving their taxpayer money to vastly wealthy corporations, already taxing a fair proportion of them for essential utilities?
Why?
Because Pap they’ve not been told how the funds that will be used to pay their pension have been obtained - It’s info available out there if you know where to look.
Both Tories and Labour don’t make a big deal of it because it doesn’t suit their political purposes - likewise the impact of Brexit on such investments doesn’t appear to have been made public & l know pensions firm have done research.
Make people aware of how they may be hit at a personal level and you may well get a sea-change of opinion
- in either direction
Playing devils advocate obvs
What’s wrong with a decent state pension?
What’s right with the pensions system as is? We’ve just seen Carillion go under, it’s 900m pension shortfall a big factor. We’ve seen firm after firm fuck with their pension fund, from Maxwell to BHS to Carillion, and the laws to make it mandatory for all employers have only exacerbated the situation.
Most people have gotten that the market isn’t a suitable provider of public services. Tax the firms that make so much wealth out of our country, and put that into a pension fund for all.
Your devil’s advocate is using a bad system to defend a bad system.