:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal

:brexit: Brexit - Deal or no deal
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#338

Not sure the y axis would be as true as you say, but the rest is about right. Real shame, because either way had potential if dealt with correctly(by non idiots).
Maybe the big surprise is our own shock, that yet again, they’ve fucked it all up :lou_facepalm_2:


#339

I’m about 2/3rds through. It’s a lot more entertaining than I expected. Is the final third going to change my mind?


#340

image


#341

Nope

You are fixed in your view & I’m fixed in mine

What the bloody hell were you expecting from it, the second coming or something?!


#342

Right, I’ve seen the lot of it. I thought it was very good, and while bits of it were obviously fabricated, something the show admits itself, a huge amount of it tallies with the stuff I’ve read. I’m not going to knock it for showing scenes that are never going to appear in a memoir, especially if it makes it a better show.

Let’s assume that this isn’t fiction. That the show broadly depicts things as they are.

What’s your prob?


#343

With the greatest respect


#344

Hmm. I watch the film you suggest and ask you for your opinion, and get this in response?

How’s about some respect for my time?

What’s your problem with that film?


#345

Uhm… you the problem with TRYING to be clever or witty is that you have to BE clever or witty, otherwise you just end up looking a bit of plank. Your post is one two things… wither an attempt to provoke, or an attempt to be witty …In the spirit of goodwill and harmony, I will give you the benefit of the doubt… and assume the latter.

Either way it really does sadly miss the point. We know that you truly believe that the only thing that matters, the only opinion that matters is what 51.8% of those that voted chose to do in the summer 2016 - end of (despite the fact that you have chosen not to ‘respect’ the question of how many of these might a) have changed their minds since, b) how many of these voted as they did in protest, c) how many through single issues thatt effect them that could be resolved in other ways… but anyway)… we move on.

You see, the referendum, as you rightly point out only asked people WHAT they wanted to do. It did NOT ask them HOW they wanted it done. Any given that the HOW ranges from hard Brexit with no deal to soft with deal that requires many concessions and compromises to retain some of the EU benefits, would you at the VERY LEAST concede that:

  • That the socio- and economic impact will be effected by HOW we eventually leave?
  • That there is a diverse set of opinions on that scale as to HOW we should leave?
  • That many, are now more concerned with causing enough disruption to bring about a GE as opposed to ‘coming together in unity to bring about brexit…’
  • That for some that this was only ever about a power struggle and never about what was right for the UK and its people (and that includes folks on both sides)
  • That many people remain confused as to what IS in the best interests of the people and the country with respect to deals, this one or otherwise?

You see, we simply don’t know the ‘will of the people’ is today on the type of brexit they want as no one is prepared to ask them… you will no doubt suggest that it does not matter as that was not the question, but if it was not important and it not matter to people, then this current shit storm over the deal would not be happening… it would be hard brexit, and out as the only option… That is what it SHOULD have said on the ballot paper if you truly wanted a mandate to match the ‘its the only vote that counts…’ nonsense

To dismiss the current diversity of opinion / confusion with simply ‘reminding’ folk of the referendum ballot paper, is naive at best. HOW we leave is now teh much bigger and much more pressing question.

… and its probably what is keeping young Jeremy up all night… he knows if he wins a GE, he will get 5 years and out… because he will inherit the mess of Brexit and as we know the voting public have short memories and he will get the blame for the Brexit shit, no matter what he tries to do to counter the impact… higher taxes for rich and middle classes? He will lose the 4mil swingers who are generally Working class tories and be out on his ear in 2024… but that is if he can even formulate a policy that brings enough of the multitude of Brexit deal opinions together - which is why he is so keen on a GE NOW as opposed to after any deal is made or 29th March… Just as with the Tories, The Labour employed political analysts will be doing the sums to help form policy… to assume it will be based on ideology as opposed to pragmatism is ridiculous… and after all, pragmatism is all any deal is after…


#346

Posts like this are exactly why people need to be reminded of the ballot paper. It’ll help them to spot the goalpost tracks on the playing field.

Seriously Map, there was no mention of any deal, nothing about it being central to proceedings until after the referendum was lost.

Indeed, we had the Prime Minister stating explicitly saying that we’d have to leave the institutions that you’d prefer to remain in. People knew what they voted for. People knew that the choice carried a risk. A majority of people clearly thought the potential rewards outweighed the risk.

Personally, I think the difficulty and hostility the UK has faced in exiting the Union is ample reason to get out and stay out.


#347

You are correct, it was not written on the ballot paper, but it was repeatedly mentioned by leading Brexit campaigners in response to what they called project fear, that the negotiations with the EU on how we exit would ensure minimal impact on the UK economy and ability to provide services for UK citizens…

In addition, it no longer matters. If there is now a groundswell of opinion that feels a deal is necessary to ensure some level of measured exit and thus minimal disruption which I might humbly suggest the vast majority of politicians and the public would probably agree with… its what matters today and tomorrow that is important, especially given that what happened two years ago was such a mass of propaganda and misinformation ate blatant lies…

I just find it so incredulous that anyone would not recognise that HOW we leave is critical and that we should be doing all we can to get the best deal - which WILL involve compromise, that is after all what NEGOTIATION is designed to achieve - something that both parties can come away form and feel they have a deal that is workable and for which they have a mandate.

We can’t do anything about the fact that we will leave, but why are some so afraid of asking the public HOW they want that thy to be? The protestations only seem to come from hardened brexiteers… what are they afraid of? That the majority may accept more concessions? be more prepared to retain some aspects so aberrant to hard line brexiteers? that a majority might be willing to accept such compromise as a means to ensuring we retain benefits?

I think such brexiteers do protest to much…


#348

I see no problem with asking ‘how’ we should leave as long as remain isn’t one of the options.


#349

That is fair enough as if the purpose of the exercise is to establish how, then that should be the focus.

I would really like to know though whether folks have changed their minds given everything that has been revealed since… its why that ballot was hideous, because of the zero chance of change should folks minds and will change on reflection…

Fuck, you get 30 days to change your mind on a credit purchase of £25!.. yet fuck all on something so important, not just for us toady, but for our kids and grandkids… that is what I find so abhorrent about the way the lies and propaganda is dismissed so lightly… It should NEVER have been about just a single vote (that was not even meant to be binding) - It should have been planned as a staged series of votes votes - one to initiate the process or not, one to determine what deal we should exit on, and finally after all of the implications have been explained, a final one to decide do we want to go a ahead or not… that would have been a true democratic process…

I truly believe that the reason why many staunch brexiteers dont want to go near a second vote of any type is that they fear the groundswell would accept more compromise than their ideology would… most folks are pragmatic after all and dont have a zealot like passion one way or another. They know they got luck with a perfect storm of austerity fatigue, Tory infighting, mis-management of immigration, and a conceited and complacent remain campaign…


#350

All the polls point to there being little or no change in the result should there be another referendum. I think holding a second vote would only cause more division. Honour the first one (however) and move on.


#351

Sorry goaty, but all the polls indicated Remain first time round… they use samples of 2000 or so, and even get it wrong when there is 10%+ difference, let alone when it was as tight as is… only true measure of opinion at the current time is to ask all…

I am also very intrigued by how many Brexit voters would have said yes to a question on compromise such as we leave EU but become part of EEC…etc - There was simply too little grown up discussion prior to the shitty and misleading campaigning that prevented people having input into the options we might have considered…


#352

Can you really balance ‘people may have changed their minds’ with ‘we will ignore the first vote’ though?
Say there is a reversal of decision on a second vote. What then? Best of 3?


#353

It’s all hypothetical anyway map. It is electoral suicide to call for a second referendum.


#354

What was really needed was as I said a planned series… but also we do ignore voters previous choices every 4-5 years in a GE… I could argue that those forcing through a GE now and that includes Corbyn, are in effect ignoring the people for voted for May last time round… ?

Given the simple facts that any opportunity to re-enter will be 20-30 years down teh line and then it would be without the concessions we currently enjoy… it was IMHO even more important that we did not put everything on one overly simplistic vote taken at a ‘perfect storm’ moment, without any opportunity to reflect on the implications… I just do not believe that a majority of Brexit voters are so ideologically hung up on a brexit at all costs… do many?

Re best pf 3… obviously not, but as I said

  1. should we initiate teh process of withdrawal yes/NO If yes then following

  2. How do we leave (all about deal vs no deal and what we are prepared to compromise on

  3. then finally, after a cooling off period and a final yes or no…

why is that so unreasonable when teh implications are so far reaching and complex?

(especially when we consider the ref was not meant to be binding but advisory?)


#355

We don’t ignore voters every four or five years.

Their decision in a general election is implemented. If they don’t like the results, they can choose new politicians for a new government.

What the People’s Vote crowd want is to not implement the result at all. That is ignoring the electorate.


#356

Stop right there.

I was not allowed to vote

But I would have voted.

I would have accepted the majority decision.

Another vote because the minority did not like it is wrong on every democracy ever heard.

Sure have another vote but after the last vote has been enacted upon.

When we are out as per the democractiic vote then have as many referendums as you please.

But for the meantime all of you shut the fuck up,


#357

I disagree with all you said apart fro the last line.

This thread has become like the one that was closed.

For that reason I’m out and yet another thread I’ll no longer be following

(Flounces out of room :lou_is_a_flirt:)