Not sure that is any different with the bank of Englandā¦ people still get fuckedā¦ maybe we just like getting fucked by our own as opposed to by foreigners because ultimately we still get fuckedā¦
so of reminds me of thisā¦
1 Like
Umm, I believe one of the pre-reqs of joining the EU, now, is that you HAVE to join the Euroā¦
I may be wrongā¦
Not true.
Itās indefensible.
The point I always cite is the UKIPs getting 4m votes and no MP.
Iām not an apologist for the UKIPs, but that is not democratic.
1 Like
Greeceās problems were caused by huge, unprecedented, public spending combined with almost non existent financial management, terrible decision making and some fraud along the way. The bailout and resulting issues are a different matter but the original problems and the near bankruptcy of a country were entirely down to Greece.
Greece was thrown under the bus to prevent large French and German banking interests from going under.
They continued to knowingly lend to an insolvent country because they knew the Eurozone would bail them out.
There is only one question that really matters, and i have yet to see any answer from any ardent Brexiters. In simple terms, what are the advantages to working class people if we crash out without a deal These working class people, from mining villages in the north of England, who were destroyed by Thatcher, who are now proudly boasting to the Daily Mail, The Sun etc that they voted for Johnson and his political vandals, pissing all over the memories and graves of their fathers and grandfathers. They had better be ready to bend over and assume the position, because it is only a matter of time before they get royally fucked up the arse by Johnson and his Old Etonian buddies, it will be very difficult to have any sympathy for themā¦Do they seriously believe that Johnson, Cummings and the rest of them give two fucks for them? Within 24 hours Johnson made it quite clear that it would be a no deal, What happened to his āoven ready deal, pop it in the ovenā that he never stopped talking about during the campaign?Complete bullshit and bare faced lies. In the immediate aftermath of the election result there were reports that the pound had āsoaredā, which in reality meant that it had gained a cent. Twenty four hours later it this was reversed. Which is small change to the man on the street, but if, like one of Johnsonās backers you had a bet of 300 million it is large change. What is Johnson and Cummingsā cut of this i wonder? But back to my original question, How will a hard Brexit benefit these poor suckers who voted to āGet Brexit Doneā, in real, practical terms?
1 Like
Everyone gripes about the DUP wielding power that was far is excess of the size of their party because they were propping up the Tories
PR will just exacerbate this.
1 Like
It will lead to coalitions.
It will force consensus.
It will stop wasted votes.
It will encourage (or at least remove the āwhy bother?ā effect) everyone to vote.
It will remove the need for tactical voting.
It will, in the long term, reduce our adversarial parliament.
Itās a no-brainer.
Your generalisation was clumsy and inaccurate.
Iād say all of this if my team win the league. In fact look further up this thread and I think youāll find me suggesting that the second Labour gets a sniff of power, electoral reform should be the first order of the day.
Our democracy is dead.
4 Likes
I agree that the Tories wonāt be doing much for the poor.
Fortunately, there is an age-old concept called supply and demand, which will.
The supply of cheap unskilled labour is coming to an end. Not only does that mean that domestic unskilled workers can demand more money for their services, it also means there will be less demand for some fairly vital basics, such as housing.
Supply and demand is supposed to work the same in capitalist systems irrespective of the national government in charge.
I used to be for PR. I still am to a limited extent.
I would prefer the Commons go to AV, the Lords to be abolished and replaced with a democratically elected second chamber which was elected via PR.
Yes, it is not perfectly proportional, but show me a country that does PR, does it well, and hasnāt just created a shitload of long-term problems for itself.
You might be tempted to mention Kings of Europe Germany, and I could understand that. Theyāre an economic superpower and the dominant voice in a relatively wealthy independent bloc. They do PR.
The problem is, PR has led to the Germans having the same coalition of parties for decades. CDU and the SDP. Youād forgive German voters if they felt their votes were unimportant.
Looking over the rest of PR Europe, do you really want it for everything? Countries go without governments for months, smaller parties are over-represented and you get unholy alliances of the far left and far right.
Thatās why I like a PR elected second chamber. It could act as an incubator for fledgling political movements to operate in and get public attention and respect.
AV is not perfect for the Commons, but having someone we can just about live with by majority is far better than two thirds of a constituency not wanting their MP at all.
2 Likes
Without wanting to get back into this old chestnut againā¦ you are gambling on a pretty big assumption - that there will be āDemandā - because whilst there will no longer be slightly cheaper, yet often harder working and better value, builders and plumbers, out there, with a shrinking economy that will come when the trade deals fail to materialise by Dec 2020, I doubt it will be thereā¦
You forget that most of the migrant workers from the East were working in hotels, chamber maids, cleaning toilets and picking fruitā¦ these are not the jobs that will bring prosperity to the disenfranchised north where industry no longer exists and skills have declined through lack of opportunityā¦ Pavel Polski and son builders and plumbers did not really impact on our building trade that much, if anything they were a blessing because it meant our chaps had to up their game and start turning up on timeā¦
As mentioned previously, the the current small increase in wages at lower levels is a blip and will only last until we start to feel the real impact of a no dealā¦
Iāve not forgotten the hospitality sector. Iāve actually mentioned them several times in this exact Brexit/Supply/Demand context. That sector proves the supply and demand point.
A lot of the agricultural stuff could be better served by automation and robotics. What remains should be well paid.
As for tradesmen, I take it you donāt know many. I was living in digs in 2007 and knew many, both domestic and EU national. The Eastern European lads were undercutting established firms, often for cash in hand. If upping your game means cutting your wages, then yeah, our chaps didnāt do their damnedest to keep up.
The lazy toerags 
Plenty actually, and most were not not that effected, as always had plenty of workā¦ as i said in my experience the prices were not that different but you got much better timing and completion datesā¦ anyway, the point is more that demand is likely to decline in the new sovereign utopiaā¦
85% of our trade is domestic.
New Zealand have had PR for 25 years, works fine there. I think your also forgetting that Germany is a federal system, so voters have a lot more say and control at state level. Iām no expert on German politics, but I think thereās a lot more turnover of governments at state level.
People were only griping because the Tories had been going on about the lack of magic money trees and then bunged the DUP 1 billion. In some ways it was a positive thing, brought the issue of abortion in NI into the publicās consciousness and called the DUPās bluff to get it legalised.
2 Likes
Bailing out banks and cutting public services to pay for it? Thank god that sort of thing has never happened in the UKā¦
4 Likes
Nah, thatās be bailing out banks with public money and ignoring two democratically expressed wishes for reasonable repayment terms. In the birthplace of democracy no less.