:tories: Tories in trouble?

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Instead of just attacking the organisation (which to be fair we could do to any Guardian/Mirror/Huffington Post/Owen Jones article that has been posted on here), why don’t you attack what has been written, and tell us what is incorrect about it.

The source wasn’t properly introduced, because you either didn’t know about what they did, or didn’t choose to share it. It’s a virulently right wing think tank, set up by Thatcher’s inner circle, that has zero time for public ownership of anything, with previous for designing a tax so hated that people rioted over it and it brought down Thatcher.

I thought that might be relevant.

I’m very aware, in fact you’ve picked me up on posting articles from there before, but it is more straight talking than most of the other articles on the matter. The issue is why they are striking. The point they are striking on is pay. That is beyond dispute I believe.

As for the actual article, I’m interested in counter viewpoints to this, not a critique of the political persuasion. If we did this with every single link we’d never have any sort of debate on as all have some sort of political persuasion.

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

The issue is why they are striking. The point they are striking on is pay. That is beyond dispute I believe.

You believe what the govt want you to believe. It’s bullshit.

Originally posted by Chertsey Saint

As for the actual article, I’m interested in counter viewpoints to this, not a critique of the political persuasion. If we did this with every single link we’d never have any sort of debate on as all have some sort of political persuasion.

It’s a bullshit article, clearly written to prop up the govt position.

Let’s start at the begining. The very title is bollocks. It’s not facts, it’s a fudge of words, presenting different views and trying to state them as facts. The only truthful bit is that is solely about undermining the strike, shocking, coming from a Tory think tank.

Most healthcare reporting is deeply biased.

Love the inclusion of this line, as if to suggest what follows isn’t entirely biased.

Next, there is nothing wrong in considering the source of the ‘evidence’ when assessing the merits of the points being presented. Which are literally taught to consider this in GCSE History. So to turn around and say discount the source, whilst judging the contents is daft.

1. The maximum hours doctors can be made to work is actually decreasing.

This is misleading. A lot of concerns come from the undefined idea of 7 day NHS. Doctors are concerned that the NHS is being defunded, deregulated, destaffed, and sliced up with the profitable parts flogged off to Tory party donors. Often these companies have Tory politicians on their boards. Such coincidence.

2. This strike is over pay; not patient safety. Point one leads us nicely into point two; this strike is not about overworked doctors, and it’s not about patient safety. It is openly about pay.

Yeah, still bollocks. Point 1 does not stand up, and is either misguided or wilfully misleading. I know what I think, I’ll let you make your own decisions.

Worth also remembering, Hunt is a lying piece of shit. At every juncture, he has been caught lying through his teeth. The idea that Doctors are getting a pay rise is bullshit. the raise to basic pay is massively offset by the cuts to ‘banded’ pay. Banded pay makes up a significant part of a Junior Doctors pay, depending which rotation they are on at any given time. As I keep saying, Trainee GPs face a 30% pay cut. Against a back drop of Tube drivers, politicians and bankers (in publically owned and publically bailed out banks) getting raises, this is bullshit.

It’s a disgusting tactic to tar junior doctors, help massively help prop up NHS services - especially those at weekends - as money grabbers. They are not seeking massive raises, they are trying to protect themselves from cuts that will seriously impede their standard of living.

Which, given the massive level of skill, training, pressure and debt amassed to get to that point, I think doctors do deserve.

3. The NHS is the only healthcare most Brits can access.

Interesting spin on this. What does that do to a junior doctors negotiating position? Can they say well, mpose this contract I will work for another employer? Course they can’t. They have no freedom to take their labour elsewhere, seeking better conditions. If they did, no governemtn could consider behaving in the manner they have.

4. Patient safety is at risk

This is where the bias levels get hilarious. What this is essentially saying is that different studies have shown different things. Which is true of any subject that has ever been the basis of multiple studies. No shit Sherlock.

Going back to above, thinking you can decrease staff and funding, whilst increasing services and not think this is a risk to patient safety, you are clearly dizzy. Does the article make any mention of this? No, course not. Wonder why?

5. The British Medical Association is not a neutral body; it is a pressure group.

How exactly does this undermine the strike? They are a union, their stated purpose is to protect the interests of it’s members. This is a bullshit point of the highest order. Who in their right mind goes into a negotiation with someone neutral representing them?

Did Jeremy Hunt and the governement go in neutral? Or did they go in with their agenda, trying to get what they want? Meaningless tosh.

One final point: British patients are becoming increasingly aware that the NHS isn’t all it’s cracked up to be; some are starting to look look fondly across the channel to Europe, where patients are getting better treatment and experiencing better outcomes.

Again, support for the strikes is well above 50%. Over 60% in many cases.

Trying to equate some dissatisfaction with the NHS to the strikes is seriously misleading and entirely without merit. Where is any investigation into what is causing the dissatisfaction?

I’ll give you a hint. Under-funding and job cuts. The article doesn’t state it, but the article it links does. Typical tactic that seems to get employed a lot by this government.

Hospitals are now so short-staffed and underequipped that people are also dying needlessly because of a chronic lack of investment. The verdict, from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), will make embarrassing reading for David Cameron who denied the cash-strapped NHS is heading for its worst winter crisis.

Staff are too rushed to improve levels of care that have in many areas fallen below countries such as Turkey, Portugal and Poland. Almost 75,000 more doctors and nurses are needed to match standards in similar countries the OECD said in its annual Health at a Glance study comparing the quality of healthcare across 34 countries.

How does hammering Doctors, Junior or otherwise help this? How does making it significantly harder for nurses to train and qualify help any of this?

The NHS is getting worse, but is almost entirely the making of this government. There’s also social issues in there as well, drinking, obesity and old-age which are putting unprecedented levels of strain on the NHS.

None of this is the fault of Junior Doctors. Again, even trying to link the two is intellectually dishonest in the extreme. And yeah, that article is complete bollocks.

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Sorry if that came across aggressive Cherts. I don’t mean to, but the bollocks being peddled really pisses me off.

Maybe I am a bit too close to have this conversation, but I see how hard they work first hand. It’s not just my girlfriend, it’s a lot of my friends too (we met few some mutual friends who also hapened to be medical students).

They work ridiculous hours, way above and beyond what they are paid. I cannot count the amount of times I have sat up with my gf when she is in tears all night where she simply couldn’t help a patient anymore.

I know how hard these people work, and I know the background of what is going on here. The cases presented by Hunt and that article are a massive distortion of the truth and it is frankly disgusting.

The NHS is one of the best things about this country. That’s not to say it’s not perfect, or that we shouldn’t strive to improve it. But that is not remotely what is going on here.

This is the beginings of strippng back the NHS until it is unworkable, to make people pissed off with it (as that article is trying to encourage) and then selling it off to their mates.

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Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

I’m very aware, in fact you’ve picked me up on posting articles from there before, but it is more straight talking than most of the other articles on the matter. The issue is why they are striking. The point they are striking on is pay. That is beyond dispute I believe.

I think KRG has you covered on the details, but people can expect this sort of reaction, not just you. I recently pointed out Breitbart’s purpose; did the same here.

I am amazed that you’ve fallen for such obvious spin. An entire paragraph is dedicated to how the NHS is a big evil monopoly allowing those greedy junior doctors to hold the country to ransom. I’m taking artistic licence of course, but it’s an example of the painfully transparent agenda-whoring these people do. You’re supposed to come away thinking “maybe a market led health service would be better!”. Fools.

As for the actual article, I’m interested in counter viewpoints to this, not a critique of the political persuasion. If we did this with every single link we’d never have any sort of debate on as all have some sort of political persuasion.

Of course you are. Most right-leaning people love a counter viewpoint because it allows them the benefit of the doubt on whatever policy issue the right wing is fucking up for the country. Whether that’s a dripping-with-bias report from the right wing think tank that brought us the poll tax and bus deregulation, or just the sight of a benefit claimant with a flat screen TV (like you can buy CRTs these days :D) the exercise is always the same.

Create enough doubt so right wingers can pretend it is not happening or is somehow justified because those affected are unworthy or have too much already.

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What I don’t get is why the need to improve the performance of the NHS at weekends (that’s Saturday and Sunday Jeremy) is being lumped onto junior doctors.

Mrs G reckons the ‘slow down’ of services at the weekend would be better assisted by more consultants on site, more GP’s available etc.

What makes Hunt think that Junior doctors will help him deliver his manifesto promise?

It still comes down to money on both sides.

Until there are 24/7 **routine ** radiology, laboratory, elective surgery and administrative services and increased soft FM to go with it then weekend admissions will always be more urgent. Many consultants already work weekends and, were it not for a shortage of GPs anyway, no doubt many GP practices could also open at weekends. You’re right - the service can’t be provided SOLELY on the backs of junior doctors. Support services are crucial too but guess what - our esteemed Health Secretary ain’t putting more money into achieving this.

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That’s how I understand it hoof. Something stinks about this whole thing.

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Petition to consider a vote of No Confidence in Jeremy Hunt has gone gangbusters, amassing the necessary signatures in a day.

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Unfortunately it’ll be brushed off as usual with some party-line bullshit email to those who signed the petition, about how the Conservatives are “making the NHS stronger” and “securing Britain’s future” etc etc.

Just think, we’ve got another 4 years of this to go! Huzzah!

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Also apologies if this has been posted already, but here’s the Huntmeister speaking out:

I’ve weighed it all up and decided that he’s a cunt.

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This is a good article that makes the link between the present contract situation and the creeping privatisation of the NHS, unsurprisingly featuring our friends the Adam Smith Institute.

I don’t reckon they’re as straight talking as they make out.

But first, a little history lesson…

Conversion from the NHS model, a publicly funded, provided and universal system, to a private insurance model has been proposed for decades.

In 1968 Arthur Seldon, later Margaret Thatcher’s privatisation policy adviser, produced a pamphlet for the Institute of Economic Affairs called After the NHS, explaining the aspiration to “improve the NHS” by abolishing it so as to build profit opportunities insurance industry.

Further incarnations of this same plan to enable the insurance industry to increase its profits in the UK by destroying the NHS surfaced in the 1980s. This included Health of Nations by the Adam Smith Institute and, in 1988, Britain’s Biggest Enterprise: Ideas for Radical Reform of the NHS, a version articulated by current Conservative Minister of State for Government Policy, Oliver Letwin MP in the NHS privatisation manifesto he wrote with John Redwood MP, published by the Centre for Policy Studies, a Thatcherite think-tank.

Found this link on the other place. Timeline of Jeremy Hunt shame.

It still comes down to Saturday payments and enhancements, thats the sticking point, everything else from both sides is window dressing. I fully support the strikes by the way but the strikers need to say what exactly they are striking for, to say they’re intelligent implies other strikers aren’t or are not as intelligent as them which in itself is snobby, do people know about the 90 day ruling? The unions do so they should be working harder to make sure that is not enforced, the industrial relations section in Unison etc know this, as it cuts both ways surely we could get more doctors from abroad to prop up the NHS as we know the monetry deserters who are only in it for the patients…

I wonder if we need a “things the government do and are getting away with it under our nose” thread. Or “revolving door between government and big business: who really is in charge”

nhs-contract-stoke

the problem with this dispute is that I just don’t believe either side is being totally honest. The media don’t give a fuck just so long as they can keep adding fuel to the fire and keep the row bubbling along.