Farron speaks well, and passionately, for a young-un
Originally posted by @BTripz
Tunisia has workedā¦
Would this be the same Tunisia that suffered a massive terroist attack in Sousse this year, resulting in the deaths of more than 30 British citizens?
Yep, that worked.
Donāt forget the bombing in Tunis itself earlier in the year which, as you very well know, was claimed by Daesh.
The Government itself is working and working well. Sheesh Pap, talk about Strawman, thatās like saying democracy doesnāt work in the UK because of 7/7, and not in France because of recent eventsā¦
Iām not forgetting anything, and I celebrate the efforts of Tunisians to form a stable government. That isnāt being helped by the Daesh attacks. The Sousse attack was planned in the lawless lands of Libya, which letās not forget, the US, France and UK helped to make lawless.
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @BTripz
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @BTripz
Tunisia has workedā¦
Would this be the same Tunisia that suffered a massive terroist attack in Sousse this year, resulting in the deaths of more than 30 British citizens?
Yep, that worked.
Donāt forget the bombing in Tunis itself earlier in the year which, as you very well know, was claimed by Daesh.
The Government itself is working and working well. Sheesh Pap, talk about Strawman, thatās like saying democracy doesnāt work in the UK because of 7/7, and not in France because of recent eventsā¦
Iām not forgetting anything, and I celebrate the efforts of Tunisians to form a stable government. That isnāt being helped by the Daesh attacks. The Sousse attack was planned in the lawless lands of Libya, which letās not forget, the US, France and UK helped to make lawless.
What should we do Pap?
But Iām not talking about that, Iām talking about getting democracy working in these countriesā¦
Originally posted by @Barry-Sanchez
What should we do Pap?
Interesting question. IfI had one long term answer, it would be to respect and uphold international law, removing the exceptionalism that the five permanent members of the security council and their bestest buds enjoy. A genuine committment to self-determination would also resolve a lot of the issues.
Short-term, we need to be willing to accept to be part of an international and UN-legal effort to remove ISIS from Syria. We need to table any regime change plans for later on, and accept that if we do get involved militarily, we have to work with people that we donāt particularly like under normal circumstances.
Hitchens made the point about Soviet entry into the Second World War. Churchill, whoād spent almost as much time bigging up the evils of Bolshevism as he had Nazism, quickly changed tack. The media here went on a charm offensive. The long term objective correctly overrode all other considerations, even the fact that Stalin was almost as much of a bastard as Hitler.
One of my biggest concerns with this action is that I do not believe the PMās first priority is the removal of ISIS.
2 Likes
Originally posted by @BTripz
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @BTripz
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @BTripz
Tunisia has workedā¦
Would this be the same Tunisia that suffered a massive terroist attack in Sousse this year, resulting in the deaths of more than 30 British citizens?
Yep, that worked.
Donāt forget the bombing in Tunis itself earlier in the year which, as you very well know, was claimed by Daesh.
The Government itself is working and working well. Sheesh Pap, talk about Strawman, thatās like saying democracy doesnāt work in the UK because of 7/7, and not in France because of recent eventsā¦
Iām not forgetting anything, and I celebrate the efforts of Tunisians to form a stable government. That isnāt being helped by the Daesh attacks. The Sousse attack was planned in the lawless lands of Libya, which letās not forget, the US, France and UK helped to make lawless.
But Iām not talking about that, Iām talking about getting democracy working in these countriesā¦
Until democracy ranks higher on the agenda than a book then freedoms and tolerance will be at a minimum, nevermind the sandal wearing liberals over here who think they are great and will never attack their lack of tolerance for fear of upsetting cultural sensitivities.
Reverse racism and the old case of my enemies enemy is my friend bollocks.
Originally posted by @BTripz
But Iām not talking about that, Iām talking about getting democracy working in these countriesā¦
The issues are diffcult to separate, and are often in conflict. The typical reaction of authority in the face of terror attacks is to reduce democracy. If youāve got a country full of jihadists on your doorstep, what compromises will you make? We ourselves ditched many rights during the Troubles. No jury trials in NI. Collusion with paramilitaries. I hope Tunisia makes it, because it seems like the one country in the Arab Spring where a genuine wish for democracy prevailed.
Libya has failed to produce a democracy. Egypt tried, but quickly reverted to military rule. Afghanistan and Iraq are failing states. My view is that countries take on social change at their own pace, according the conditions on the ground. There was no chance of democracy in Spain between the late 30s and 1975, but there was a desire to see it implemented.
Besides, for all the talk of respecting democracy, the Western lot really doesnāt. Itās an obstacle, something that stops them getting their way, because most people arenāt actually interested in going to war. The West and its agents have toppled numerous democratic governments because they didnāt like the result that the people wanted.
Originally posted by @pap
Originally posted by @BTripz
But Iām not talking about that, Iām talking about getting democracy working in these countriesā¦
The issues are diffcult to separate, and are often in conflict. The typical reaction of authority in the face of terror attacks is to reduce democracy. If youāve got a country full of jihadists on your doorstep, what compromises will you make? We ourselves ditched many rights during the Troubles. No jury trials in NI. Collusion with paramilitaries. I hope Tunisia makes it, because it seems like the one country in the Arab Spring where a genuine wish for democracy prevailed.
Libya has failed to produce a democracy. Egypt tried, but quickly reverted to military rule. Afghanistan and Iraq are failing states. My view is that countries take on social change at their own pace, according the conditions on the ground. There was no chance of democracy in Spain between the late 30s and 1975, but there was a desire to see it implemented.
Besides, for all the talk of respecting democracy, the Western lot really doesnāt. Itās an obstacle, something that stops them getting their way, because most people arenāt actually interested in going to war. The West and its agents have toppled numerous democratic governments because they didnāt like the result that the people wanted.
Pap
The Diplock court system was because juries were being targeted, that wasnt the state.
And collusion with the paramilitaries? Of course there was and there will always be that, do you not think there is some discussion between ISIS and the Turks, Russians and Americans? Do you think it is all played out in the open? Dont be soft.
Democracy is a flight of fancy, but some places are freer than others, this Country is one of the most liberal, tolerant and democratic on the planet, the liberals and extreme left who hate this Nation hate that truth.
serious question Barry - other than ISIS supporters, where are all of these British people you mention who hate their own country?
Originally posted by @Rallyboy
serious question Barry - other than ISIS supporters, where are all of these British people you mention who hate their own country?
The extreme left, they hate this Country more than any terrorist organisation.
Not sure if this has been posted already, but this is a fascinating video from Nicolas Henin, a French journalist who was held captive by Daesh for 10 months.
Canāt disagree with anything he has to say - bombing will further serve the ISIS propaganda machine.
Results of the first vote in approx 5 minutesā¦
3 Likes
Originally posted by @SuperMikey
Not sure if this has been posted already, but this is a fascinating video from Nicolas Henin, a French journalist who was held captive by Daesh for 10 months.
Canāt disagree with anything he has to say - bombing will further serve the ISIS propaganda machine.
Results of the first vote in approx 5 minutesā¦
I donāt like to get involved in these threads but Mikey youāre spot on
1 Like
The amendment has been blocked, 390 to 211. Weāre bombing Syriaā¦
Still awaiting results.
Stalin was equally as bad as Hitler, Mao also.
Commintment to self determination? Go on.
I not too sure determining our own future helps others in suffering but carry on.
Majority of 174 in favour
Depressing. Thisāll be one of those occasions where I wonāt look forward to saying I told you so, and will be delighted if I have the wrong of it.
2 Likes
Air strikes authorised with a majority of 174. Would be interesting to see how the Commons voting squares up to public opinion polls, I donāt really know many people in favour of extending bombing to Syria. I hope weāve got a fucking good plan for this, because at the moment it sounds like weāre going to arm a load of nutters, bomb the shit out of Raqqa and hope for the best.