šŸ‡øšŸ‡¾ Syria

Bwah, don’t blame yourself for this. I am perfectly capable of getting into this sort of trouble on my own.

My reading of this thread was that it was going to be a more wider view of Syrian situation than the one I started, which simply asked if the Russians were going to make the decisive difference in the war. The complexity of the issue, and the sheer number of countries involved, was always going to throw different angles into such a broad discussion.

Since starting this place, my personal policy concerning the big challenges to the official narrative largely involve waiting for something I’d read about earlier turning up in a respected publication. I still maintain an interest in accounts that challenge the official narrative, but I tend to wait for the chickens to come home to roost before crowing about anything.

That’s a less brave position than I’d like, but to be honest, it saves a load of hassle and the continuing effluence of dodgy shit hitting respected news sources means that we get to discuss the issue, not ten pages of discussion on whether it’s an issue or not. And I look less of a twat for breaking nonsense that never happens, so there’s that.

I’ve certainly shared unverified personal accounts here though, and on related subjects too. FWIW, I thought your posts were clearly signposted, complete with an invitation to disbelieve the fuck out of it if you liked. I never gave people that option when I retold the ā€œclear the roomā€ story, so I reckon you were pretty fair.

My work took me yesterday to Grand Synthe, an area of farmland handed over to a refugee camp.

It is an area of wasteland, rats, litter and flooded woods -100 years on it looks like the Somme meets Glastonbury on a bad year.

The people living there have nothing - I saw refugees desperately begging aid workers for stuff like a toilet roll - simple basics we take for granted.

The conditions are disgusting - you have to be running away from something horrific to think that Grand Synthe is an improvement to your life.

But this is not just a naive do-gooders tale of woe, I wasn’t born yesterday - I was there with an aid effort, mainly to see what was happening.

At one point I ended up dishing out aid to a manic crowd and someone described me as going from cheery Santa to the Grinch in two minutes.

The place had been described in advance as intimidating and I went there determined that I would not be intimidated by anyone.

I’m happy to help people with sleeping bags and boots and stuff, many were very grateful, but get out of my face and off the fucking van!

And no we don’t have pyjamas - or boots in a different colour, this is not John Lewis.

But it is impossible to judge the whole situation in one go as everyone has a different story.

It is basically a waiting room for daily attempts at illegally getting on a lorry or a train - and behind the canvas the camp has an underlying sinister atmosphere with talk of the place being controlled by certain groups - and I’m not even sure what controlled means in this context…

One story about firearms gave the whole place an edgy feel.

So how can you judge the right and the wrong of this place?

For instance, case one could be a guy who is fleeing ISIS, his town has been destroyed by allied bombing, he is well educated and his only living family is established in the UK.

Case two could be a guy who is fleeing ISIS, his town has been destroyed by allied bombing and he wants a better life, as we all do…but couldn’t that better life just as easily be in France, or Spain?

Case three could be a guy who says he s fleeing ISIS, he says his town has been destroyed by allied bombing and he hears you get good money in the UK…

Three identical guys to look at - but each case is different.

The only thing I would say is that it is pointless talking about how these people need to return to their homes or any irrelevant shit like that.

That argument is too late, that boat has sailed, these are the people who survived that trip.

We need to deal with this problem as it is TODAY, which is desperate people with nothing, sleeping tonight in a freezing filthy swamp on our doorstep.

Forget the mistakes already made, plan for the future to prevent a repeat BUT we need to sort out the mess we are faced with today - and it is OUR mess as it is 20 miles away - and it is out there right now as I type, trying to get onto a lorry to the UK.

ps Anyone who makes it to Dover is going to wonder why the fuck they bothered - it’s touch and go whether the camp is more depressing.

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Originally posted by pap

respected news sources

Haha. I can see you have a penchant for the paradoxical.

Originally posted by pap

FWIW, I thought your posts were clearly signposted, complete with an invitation to disbelieve the fuck out of it if you liked. I never gave people that option when I retold the ā€œclear the roomā€ story, so I reckon you were pretty fair.

Cheers Pap.

I think this sits here as well as anywhere. Yes, it’s about Iraq and not Syria, but given that IS has significant areas of control in bot countries it’s very much salient to the position in Syria as well. I haven’t seen the film mentioned, and in all honesty I think I’d find it hard to watch (and I’m sure the same goes for most people), but I’ll look it up and watch it if I can.

Ed Vulliamy on video diary of Michael Ware in Iraq

As much as anything, the article itself shows the danger of the approach taken in Iraq. ā€œSaddam is horrid and everybbody hates him. If we get rid of him then all the Iraqis will love us, be massively grateful and love us forever.ā€. The attitude of the US troops, as described by Ware, speaks volumes; they genuinely didn’t understand why Iraqis were fighting against them.

I really wish I could believe that some lessons have been learned from all of this.

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Never or not until there is no profit from war and there is religion on this Earth.

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I think you meant ā€˜no religion’ there Bazza. I agree entirely.

No I wrote it correctly, I should have used whilst but bollocks its Sunday.

OK, gotcha. Still agree with your sentiments. And yes, it is Sunday, and I have a bottle of wine to polish off.

Religion has advanced us as much as it has held us back. The formation of the Caliphate is a great example. Baghdad was a huge centre of learning, and the attitudes of Islam and Christianity are almost the opposite of how they are perceived today. Islam was open-minded, hungry for technological advancement and progress, while Christianity was more fundamentalist. Religious institutions have long been patrons to art, or been involved in helping the poor. For every barbarous act justified by religion, there are probably a hundred positive ones inspired by the same texts.

I personally don’t subscribe to one myself, but I am fascinated on the part religion has helped in shaping the world. Not all of it has been bad.

Yes I’m all for a hompohobic and sexist dogma carrying on in the 21st century backed up by a bollocks book, the pillars of openess,

Religion controlled seats of learning Pap, they’re different things ie being told something or learning something.

Didn’t the Caliphate subjegate people or Rome?

Pap you’re so naive its unbelievable, helping the poor? Go on give me some examples of the Church genuinely helping the poor enmass without trying to convert, control or tame?

A tool of control, I would have thought a devote left winger who should be openly defending the rights of all should be expousing distrust at best or hatred at worse to these bastions of false Gods?

As I said, I don’t subscribe to a religion myself.

As to your questions, I think that the Caliphate is a reasonable example. This was an empire driven by theology, and many people did convert to Islam. And yet, other faiths were tolerated more often than persecuted (the Zoroastrians got a shit time). They even had a special word for non-Muslim people in Islamic states. Dhimmi, translating as ā€œprotected personā€

I’m not offering up a defence of religion, or suggesting that its achievements could not have been reached in any other way. It just hasn’t been the utter shit burger that you claim it is, even though people have used it to justify some shocking actions.

ISIS mostly made up of ex Baathist party military people. They’re not religious.

Zoastrianism predated Islam by at least 1000 years

The religious conflict is a difference in beliefs, but equally stupid as Sunni as Shia as Catholic and Protestant.

Also, I have run out of salted peanut snacks :frowning:

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Yes, there’s a lot in that. the prevalence of Saddam’s old military in the emergent IS cerainly did them no harm when it came to fighting. Quite simply, they had plenty of people who knew what they were doing militarily.

Any Middle Class Syrian will tell you that the war is nothing to do with the people wanting rid of Bashar.

The Saudi’s want him gone. The Israeli’s want him to stay. Syria under Bashar was stable but too weak to threaten Israel. The Saudi’s now have their own agenda becaue of the probable re-introduction of Iran into the ā€œnon-axis of evilā€.

In recent weeks, articles have been printed in this region where Saudi has withdrawn funding support for the Lebanese Army, UAE has issued travel bans on it’s Citizens to that country and now debate is ongoing about banning passport holders with an Iranian Visa from entering many of the GCC states. All of this can be googled and reflects a growing contagion from Syria SINCE the Russians stepped in to shore up Bashar (may just be a co-incidence of course). Also there have been some snippets regarding the internal divisions inside Iran between the Election winning Moderates and the Hard-liners which can be found by Google Searches.

Everything is linked.

Rallyboy may be interested in this article which may explain some of his trip to France and my posting style

I will not speculate on where this contagion could lead, just that at the moment it seemed to me that nobody in Europe is talking about it and what TV News I did see on the subject in UK still thinks that Syria is an Arab Spring thing.

It is not. It’s a whole heap of trouble in waiting than that

I agree, I have alays had an interest in the conflinct in Northern Ireland, religion was a great recruiting tool yet many of the IRA/PIRA heldMarxist Socialist beliefs, of course that again was never really hugely mentioned and the Church gladly lapped up Nationlist membership.

Religion in the history of time will be seen as a criminal act.

Hmmm. Interesting and again a Papsweb Exclusive.

Here is some ā€œinteresting gossipā€ or maybe ridiculously unsubstantiated rumours from ā€œBehind the Front Linesā€.

Bashar is going to go. The War will end. The Nation may be re-united into some form of Federal system with Regional Enclaves. Bashar may be kept on to help the transition. The INDICATION of an IMPLICATION is that Bashar accepts this but is planning a proper exit not just to safeguard him and his supporters but to actually leave a country WORTH handing over unlike Libya…

Sanctions will drop and already a trickle of new Trade Licence applications have caused queues at the Licencing Authority office, Free Zone Paper Work and Application forms have been dusted off, and EXTREMELY tentative discussions about discussions to eventually hold discussions about Business Partnerships and Agency deals have been taking place.

Now, I’m not going to debate or argue this but these rumours would indicate that there is activity beyond what we are hearing from the Media around the talks in Munich, they will clearly be dangerous & tenusous as one suicide bomber or mistake on a Drone to kick the mess back off again. Anyone in country or with links to the country or a passport of the country would likely be targetted by undercover teams for spreading rumours, but I have met people today that have been in these discussions all week and some of them are employed by VERY BIG Corporations, and ALL have been carried out with full Corporate Legal mandates so are not in any way Sanction busting.

Something very similar went on in Tehran in the months leading up to the Nuclear Deal. Tehran Hotels are currently heavily overbooked and the City is swamped with High Level Chinese & Korean delegations and a good smattering of Germans. The US & British are nowhere to be seen. My"contact" got stopped by the Passport Control officer and asked ā€œSo you Eenglish, What football team you support, Oh yes them they very good Sadio Mane and Pelle fantastic good luck you play great footballā€

(I guess MoTD is shown a few months late over there)

The Gossip may be utter gobsh1te, but then that would mean some pretty high up Multi National Director types were talking out there ass in a non-private location

Note I won’t give any opinion.

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