:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
1081

Originally posted by @Flahute

So I haven’t said/shown in anyway that I support them then? That’s cleared that up.

So now I need to condem them to show I don’t support them? That sounds an awful lot like people demanding Muslims condem terrorism otherwise they must support it and is such a bizarre statement to make. Very 1984.

Nope. I was merely asking whether you had a code of honour that would put any of their behaviour beyond the pale. You’ve had numerous opportunities to provide an example of something they do that you just couldn’t live with, and you’ve failed to do so.

But let’s get it straight anyway. Once again, do you support the coup? Do all means justify the ends?

I love the way you just make the other stuff up. Your tiny mind must be in a whirlwind stuggling to understand the concept that someone wants an electable left wing leader that isn’t Corbyn. You’re so limited that you cannot see past your blinkers and see that, perhaps, there is a credible candidate who hasn’t been involved in any move to unseat their elected leader.

You can rant and rave, you usually do, but like it or not, Corbyn and a split party cannot win a GE and that allows the tories free reign and it’ll be the Corbynistas that have allowed it.

Now I’ll leave this thread alone as a closed book such as yourself, is frankly, a bore.

Well, if you were able to provide an honest response to any of my enquiries, I wouldn’t have had to speculate so much.

The simple fact is that the only criticism you have of Corbyn can be found in any headline, at any reading age. Perhaps the thread will run smoother without the superfluous repetition of your mantra.

Sorry, I meant Alistair Campbell’s mantra. Easy mistake to make.

1082

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Woah, that wasn’t the question. You asked for someone who could do a better job than Corbyn. I’ve named you one.

But if you’re moving the goalposts (rather predictably BTW), Hilary Benn.

Famous for being nowhere near as respected as his father, and falling a disappointingly long way from the tree.

Provided the Labour case for a pointless military action where we spend the same amount of money we expect a Uni student to find for undergrad tuition, dropping a “cheap” bomb on Syrian villagers.

I can see people lining up to vote for him :lou_sunglasses:

Cherts; you’ve two things to clear. The leadership election and the general election. Can we at least start with someone capable of winning the former?

1083

Yet Benn is still infinitely more electable than Corbyn.

I think you’ve spent too much time thinking that the last Labour election (which was skewed by a rush of pretty much every sandal wearing lefty in the country signing up and voting) and what a few hundred Twitterati say as indicative of the Labour population, and I really think it’s skewing how you see Corbyns reign. It’s a real shame you won’t take your head out of the sand and realise that the most vocal supporters tend to be the least populous.

I know many, many, MANY Labour voters, and a lot of them on the left of the party. I only know 3 who think Corbyn is a good leader for the party.

Corbyn is bad for the Labour party, and ultimately damaging to this country, and that’s without him even being elected PM.

1084

Never had you down as a troll, Pap.

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1085

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Yet Benn is still infinitely more electable than Corbyn.

What’s the basis of your claim? That he got more praise for spending 50K a bomb on Syrian villagers?

You’ve also abandoned your own logic. Throughout, you’ve been claiming that we should ditch Corbyn because he’s not electable, despite y’know, the actual voting evidence. Doesn’t matter if he’s got principles. No point without power.

Same thing applies to Benn, surely. He will never get the vote of the membership. He is actually more unelectable than Corbyn. If you can’t preach to the converted, how on Earth do you convert the heathens?

I think you’ve spent too much time thinking that the last Labour election (which was skewed by a rush of pretty much every sandal wearing lefty in the country signing up and voting) and what a few hundred Twitterati say as indicative of the Labour population, and I really think it’s skewing how you see Corbyns reign. It’s a real shame you won’t take your head out of the sand and realise that the most vocal supporters tend to be the least populous.

Barry? Is that you?

I’ve seen Corbyn’s support first-hand. It’s nowt like you suggest. Do you honestly think Corbyn’s Twitter support is confined to a few hundred? Would be massively at odds with the number of people that have joined the party :slight_smile:

I also find your line of argument rather amusing in view of the events this week. The PLP rebels are the ones with their head in the sand. They believe that it is their narrow view which should prevail, 200ish (counting any people in central HQ that obviously helped) saying that millions of people are wrong.

That seems pretty impressive when they’ve getting collusion from their friends in the media and other public offices. At a general election, it’ll just be 200 votes vs hundreds of thousands.

I know many, many, MANY Labour voters, and a lot of them on the left of the party. I only know 3 who think Corbyn is a good leader for the party.

Yeah, I suspect I know more than you. Fortunately, we don’t need a Cherts or pap anecdote to explain the numbers. We’ll have another election.

Corbyn is bad for the Labour party, and ultimately damaging to this country, and that’s without him even being elected PM.

The three million families a grand a year better off will disagree. The disabled that would have lost Personal Independence Payments, the shift to the left that he seems to have forced Theresa May into. The party at its biggest size in living memory.

Try substantiation. It may strengthen your argument, or cause you not to make it at all.

Corbyn is bad for the establishment. That is not the same thing as the country. Never was.

1086

Hilary “bomb them, bomb them all” Benn would be a disaster. I’m not a Labour member but i do remember how many of them marched against Iraq.

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1087

Blimey, cannot be arsed to read all of that.

Look, I’m a Conservative supporter. The best the g for the Conservative party is for Corbyn to stay. Power, so I really shouldn’t care.

I maintain that Andy Burnham would be more electable, as would Stephen Doughty, Hillary Benn, David Milliband etc.

Let’s at least do something fun with this. I bet you £100 that Corbyn will not win the next election.

1088

Stephen Doughty. The one who is only known for resigning live on air with Laura K’s help?

Sterling choice, Cherts. I’m beginning to feel as if you’re not the sort of person I should be asking for a Labour leader :lou_sunglasses:

FWIW, I do have some admiration for Burnham. However, he can’t throw his hat in at this time, as it has ruined almost everybody else that has tried, and he lost to Corbyn last time out.

I dunno. I spend years watching people pine for an unspun politician. We finally get one that has a chance of doing something, and all the knives are in.

People truly do get the governments they deserve,

1089

Originally posted by @TheCholulaKid

Never had you down as a troll, Pap.

If you’re referring to the exchange with Flahute, ask him if he’s upset before you level any accusations.

Or is this the Corbyn thing in microcosm, where the only people allowed to be judgmental are the Blairites?

If someone wants to continuously accuse me of having a closed mind while simultaneously repeating the same thing with no substantiation ad nauseum, I don’t think they can get particularly upset when their underarm bowl is given a good whack.

1090

Originally posted by @pap

We finally get one that has a chance of doing something, and all the knives are in.

People truly do get the governments they deserve,

I had this debate with some (left leaning) friends at the weekend. We were split. I, and one or two others, are keen for Corbyn to be given a fair go. We’re interested in seeing what kind of desire there is for real change in this country and what kind of momentum (excuse the pun) can be built.

However, there’s a reason the Tories are in no rush to call a GE. Win again any time soon and they know Corbyn will have to go (assuming he wins the leadership campaign)., Labour will get in someone electable and there’s more chance of the Tories losing the following GE. They are confident enough to hold off until 2020 and will still expect to win if Corbyn is in charge. That’s at least another 5 years of Tory rule.

So to those that see Corbyn as unelectable we’ve got a choice of calling an election later this year and having the Tories in until 2021 or wait until 2020 and have them in until 2025 (at least).

As I said I would like Corbyn to be given a fair go - he’s the only chance (small or otherwise) of substantial change taking place. He needs to sort his message out though.

1091

Aren’t the “unelectable” crowd not the teeniest bit impressed with what he has achieved despite the obstacles, and in defiance of the pundit predictions?

People in Britain are better off than they would have been had he not been elected. He has successfully opposed legislation that would have made the poor poorer, got the Tories to react to his agenda, rather than slavishly follow the script as the last lot did.

That is against a backdrop of a PLP that we know in hindsight, and at the time really, were working against him the whole time. I’ve heard John McDonnell say this in the past couple of days, and it sounds whiney, but I agree. Jeremy has to be given a chance.

His opponents within the PLP never gave him that chance, set traps for him, opportunistically(?) plunging the party into further disrepute when Ken made his impolitic remarks. That really was the point where he was supposed to be destroyed.

If he has managed all that, and managed to win elections, in the midst of people actively trying to work against him, have you thought about what he might do with people on side?

This war is unfortunate, but necessary. If Corbyn wins, all the mechanisms are in place to ensure that he has people behind him. Then watch him go.

1092

Like I said you’re preaching to the converted. However, the potential of Tory rule from 2010-2025 and beyond leaves a lot of people worried and that is entirely understandable.

1093

The thread that keeps on giving, I am all in a quandry over this, I really can’t decide over Corbyn and what to do.

1094

I wasn’t really talking to you, more appealing to those that deem him unelectable. However, if the coup plotters get their way, they’re as like to implement neo-liberal policies as the Tories, won’t make fundamental changes to the way things are, and may well vote for war.

Most of us on this planet should be here to do the same thing. Leave it better than you found it. For those with families, that often means giving your kids a better chance than you did, giving the world some new decent people. Extending that concept to our national family, it means giving everyone a better chance than their forebears, trying to make everyone into decent people.

Neo-liberalism and the primacy of the free market have proven not to be the way. Wealth inequality is worse than ever, our kids are being lined up as debtors, rather than contributors. There is a financial barrier in almost everything someone needs to do. It keeps us all down, and believe me when I say that’s the intent.

We are so fucking distracted now with just trying to make ends meet that few of us bother to wonder why it’s like this. Doesn’t need to be like this, didn’t used to be like this, and it doesn’t make sense to continue like this.

1095

Originally posted by @pap

Doesn’t need to be like this, @didn’t-used-to-be-like-this, and it doesn’t make sense to continue like this.

No. it probably didn’t. But when, for the average person, was it better?

1096

I’ve come to the thread a little late and can’t be arsed reading it all, but is someone actually suggesting Hilary Benn as labour leader? Fuck me, I’d rather vote Tory.

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1097

Much easier for me in the 1980s and 1990s. The loan regime had only just been introduced, so I still got a bit of a grant. One generation before, even easier. People found secure accommodation in council housing, had more employment opportunities, could buy a house on one income.

My grandad, who is in his 80s, reckons the end of the 50s were his favourite time. Mind you, he can be a bit old fashioned at times. He wouldn’t have been down with that sixties hippy shit.

I don’t think that social funding to keep people out of the clutches of private institutions is that much to ask.

1098

Cherts’ plan all along :lou_lol:

1099

His name was put forward as a contender against Corbyn. Made me laugh because that’s the one person that would split the party more than any other. Any time i hear his name the word bomber appears in my mind.

1100

Not the image I had, amigo. I always thought he was a bit Sylvester Sneekly.

After the coup, I’m reasonably sure of it :lou_sunglasses:

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