:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Reasonably serious discussion
861

Thing is. Corbyn isn’t far left. Not really. Political common sense has changed so much in the past 40 years that I can see why he appears to be, but if you examine his policies, they’re things that work alongside and complement the sort of capitalism we can live with.

Stuff like lifelong learning, for example, is of immense benefit to anyone looking for a job and any employers. Similarly, increasing supply of of housing to the point where it is cheap and plentiful will also help us out loads, when it comes to attracting investment.

There are some things that’ll pass back into the public sector, justifiably so given the price fixing, cartels and subsidised monopolies. He has _Tory voters _supporting such initiatives, perhaps finally realising that the share price isn’t worth the daily hell of commuting.

No consideration of Corbyn’s electoral prospects can be given without pondering the political circumstances of the day. Who will he be up against, for starters? What sort of fist will they have made to settle the post-Brexit consensus?

The public have been crying out for real politicians for decades, and now they have one. He’s the Bernie Sanders that doesn’t have to fight Clinton to get on the ticket. Unlike Donald Trump, who gets cred for “telling it like it is” when nothing could be further than the truth, I don’t think Corbyn has lied to the public once.

We have not seen his like get near power in this country for 40 years. I know that at this point, people will point to the Michael Foot situation, and while I would contend that they’re on the same part of the political spectrum, the political circumstances are reversed. Old Labour ideas weren’t worth shit in the Thatcher Parliaments - the memory of the Winter of Discontent was far too fresh in some minds for Foot to ever get elected.

We’re in a different place now. Neo-liberalism has been shown to be an empty vessel for most travellers, austerity will be coming to an end. Where those ideas would have been roundly rejected 30 years ago by a significant portion of the electorate, I reckon the last six years have impressed the true value of public services on the voting public. We know they don’t work under neo-liberalism. Consequently, I think any credible efforts to reverse the effects will be well received.

862

The merest glance at his scruffy beard and corduroy trousers tells us he’s too far left, pap. Don’t try and blind us with science.

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863

I have been battling this labour crisis out in my head for a couple of weeks now, but I cannot decide what is better for the party. As the window has well and truely closed/slammed shut on a compromise within the Labour Party.

Now JC is the symptom of the problems within the Labour Party at the moment, but the cause is much more long rooted, going back to the days of NK which all started with the Labour Party’s move away from the left towards the centre of politics, to make them more electable which has lead to a divide between the parliamentary and the constituencies. Now JC does not represent his parliment.

My personal opinion is that the Labour Party should be moving towards the left, but in turn less likely to be forming a government for long while. If JC goes, then the Labour party moves back towards the centre, but are more likely to be electable. This is where I am having a tough time, with wanting Labour in power, but wanting the right Labour in power, that are in line with my principles. After al, what is the point of having a party in power just for the name, when they are not really that far off of leaning to the right?

EDIT - I do have to point out that JC has a huge amount of support from his constituences up and down the country, so perhaps we are on course for a revolution?

864

Originally posted by @Sfcsim

I have been battling this labour crisis out in my head for a couple of weeks now, but I cannot decide what is better for the party. As the window has well and truely closed/slammed shut on a compromise within the Labour Party.

Now JC is the symptom of the problems within the Labour Party at the moment, but the cause is much more long rooted, going back to the days of NK which all started with the Labour Party’s move away from the left towards the centre of politics, to make them more electable which has lead to a divide between the parliamentary and the constituencies. Now JC does not represent his parliment.

My personal opinion is that the Labour Party should be moving towards the left, but in turn less likely to be forming a government for long while. If JC goes, then the Labour party moves back towards the centre, but are more likely to be electable. This is where I am having a tough time, with wanting Labour in power, but wanting the right Labour in power, that are in line with my morales. After al, what is the point of having a party in power just for the name, when they are not really that far off of leaning to the right?

EDIT - I do have to point out that JC has a huge amount of support from his constituences up and down the country, so perhaps we are on course for a revolution?

I reckon we need to assess what “electable” meant then, and what it means now.

Whether you hold any stock in its ability to influence or not, every election has been called by the rag that we call The Sun. Did “electable” mean getting Rupert Murdoch’s approval? Quite possibly. Maybe it’s just media hype.

What’s undeniable is that people had a lot more trust in the media then than they do now. They have alternatives which often provide more complete accounts of events than we ever get to see on the news, and I’m not talking off the reservation stuff. This coup is a fantastic example of the sin of omission in much of the media.

It hasn’t gone unnoticed, and I think we’ve already seen the first consequences of this. Pardon me for repetition, but they really have chucked every taboo and the kitchen sink at Corbyn. This is the sort of stuff, especially the coup stuff, that would have sunk a leader in no time at all 30 years ago. Old media was all we had. His vote has held up.

There are competing voices out there now, more voices coming into politics and the abandonment of the position that the press was necessarily on the side of the public. People question their media now, which is a very healthy progression from where we’ve been before.

We could be approaching the 2020 General Election, or sooner, with the most questioning and cynical electorate ever.

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865

OK, I’m going to put this out there, I am traditionally a Tory voter (shock horror gasp I all hear you say) but I am getting more and more disenfranchised with the current Tory policies and idiot MPs.

Now, if JC were to stay as leader of the party I would probably swing my vote towards Labour, not that that’d help much here in Poole which has returned a Lib Dem for the last N elections. If JC were to be ousted then I’m afraid I would be voting Tory again!!

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866

Originally posted by @BTripz

OK, I’m going to put this out there, I am traditionally a Tory voter (shock horror gasp I all hear you say) but I am getting more and more disenfranchised with the current Tory policies and idiot MPs.

Now, if JC were to stay as leader of the party I would probably swing my vote towards Labour, not that that’d help much here in Poole which has returned a Lib Dem for the last N elections. If JC were to be ousted then I’m afraid I would be voting Tory again!!

That’s great but I actually think that you are in the minority of Tories and also I’ve spoken to a few I know and they do still read the papers and try as they might to say that they don’t believe everything they read they still quote from them.

I also spoke to one lady and said if you didn’t agree with the policies of the Tories anymore would you vote Labour and her answer was no still Tory and that is what labour fight against

867

So you would change your vote, from a very right Tory party, to a very left Labour Party, rather than something more central? Now I’m not having a pop, I just find that very interesting and a huge change?

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868

I know, strange isn’t it, but Tory policy just isn’t working, a central Labour party is Tory-lite. Liberals just don’t have the power to form a government or coalition (although I do like Farron).

It’s this forum’s fault and the company I mix with that are slowing changing my views and thoughts.

Corbyn Labour is far from perfect, for example I don’t believe that re-nationalisation is the answer, however it’s the Social policies that interest me now and the Tory ones just don’t cut the mustard any more.

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869

See that’s very different to me, where I would look at voting Labour if he went…

870

You get the same the other way though (and probably more ingrained as well), many Labour supporters would never vote Tory.

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871

I’m not answering for bTripz but I have a theory. There are a lot of Conservatives that really don’t want a very right wing party. They just want people not to take the piss, and sometimes fall for the argument, usually with a degree of personal justification (everyone knows someone that is taking the piss) and a little bit of projection, aided by the media. I’m not sure how big the problem is. I am sure that benefit cheats are in the papers rather a lot.

Real or not, that’s what drives a lot of Tories. “I’ve worked hard. I’ve got things because I’ve worked hard, including a sense of dignity. It’s not right that I work hard while others get to sit on their arses”. There’s a huge flaw in that argument, of course. Only the poor are considered capable of being feckless, taking the piss, or on the rob. That’s because our system has largely legalised the taking-the-piss-schemes of the rich.

I’ve seen the grief that one can get first hand when you disagree with a position, but I’ve never really had anyone call me a cunt for voting Labour. Bleeding heart liberal maybe. Borderline communist, definitely - but not a cunt. Tories often get called that. Most of them really aren’t. They just want people not to take the piss.

You’ve got a leadership that is kinda taking the piss out of them. I severely doubt any Tory voter thinks foodbanks are a good idea, yet these are the things they have to defend. Even on matters of private or public ownership, attitudes are shifting. Why? Because Tory voters don’t like people taking the piss, and they’re realising that they’re having the piss taken out of them when a company like Southern Trains can drop 341 services just like that and there is absolutely fuck all they can do about it. All with above inflation yearly train rises.

I reckon Tories are starting to rediscover their long dormant paternalism. The argument hasn’t always been about where public sector ends and private sector begins. This is a political party that used to compete with Labour governments on council house building. I think it’s starting to recognise that the market isn’t a suitable custodian for every single thing we rely on, and if the incoming PM doesn’t do anything to address that, I can see more voters going to Labour.

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872

So if you got your wish, who amongst the potential replacements for Corbyn would be most likely to persuade you to vote Labour? And more importantly, why? Genuinely interested to know.

873

And deprive yourself of a genuine choice?

Honestly mate, ask yourself what the true cost of doing business is in this day and age. Would you rather, for example, spend public money on getting our kids inspired, educated and productive - without the burden of huge financial loans, or would you rather spend ten times the amount detecting, catching, convicting and incarcerating all the council estate Moriarties you create because you don’t want to invest in the youth?

Same question at adult level.

We are buying cheap in the public sector, and paying 3x the amount to the private sector. The argument has always been about balance. With the wealth redistribution only really benefiting those that don’t need it, surely rebalancing is required, and surely we want a meatier contest than red neo-liberals vs blue neo-liberals.

874

Tory, Labour or any other party are only in it for themselves

Show me a party that is genuinely in it for the electorate then I’ll consider voting for it (well, maybe…)

Until then, I’ll continue to spoil my ballot paper by drawing a big cock on it *. I think the number of papers spoilt by drawings of cocks should be declared by the returning officer

* In my defence my local constituency is so Tory that a protest vote is meaningless - but defacing an official document with a drawing of a cock is very very funny and mature.

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875

Many do. They’re the people that tend to decide elections.

I genuinely don’t think Tory ideas are much cop, especially as practised in the last few decades, irrespective of which particular party has been pushing them :lou_lol:

The Tories’ PR game has been bloody excellent at times, and I’d say a huge part of their wins has been their ability to spin. There really isn’t that much ideological substance for people to get behind.

What happens when people finally stop believing in public relations? I reckon we’re fast approaching a point, if we’re not there already, where the rhetoric is so far from reality that it can only be laughed off.

876

Cannot argue with that in the slightest…

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877

Honestly, I don’t know enough about the different candidates to make that judgement. I just have very different views to Corbyn.

878

Good old Phillip Hammond eh?

879

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Honestly, I don’t know enough about the different candidates to make that judgement. I just have very different views to Corbyn.

Can you articulate at all?

You’ve written reams already. I know I ask for much.

880

Originally posted by @Chertsey-Saint

Originally posted by @cobham-saint

Tory, Labour or any other party are only in it for themselves

Show me a party that is genuinely in it for the electorate then I’ll consider voting for it (well, maybe…)

Until then, I’ll continue to spoil my ballot paper by drawing a big cock on it *. I think the number of papers spoilt by drawings of cocks should be declared by the returning officer

* In my defence my local constituency is so Tory that a protest vote is meaningless - but defacing an official document with a drawing of a cock is very very funny and mature.

Good old Phillip Hammond eh?

He’s a twat, but I live just over the border and have to suffer the insufferable Dominic Raab. All the more reason to draw a picture of a cock.