:labour: New Old Labour in trouble

Quote …I’m starting to think that neither term is particularly helpful. Zionism has too many owners, all with their own interpretations. I’ve been trying to find a substantive difference between racism and antisemitism. There are technical differences, but only if you take the definition of racism to the letter. I think you can argue lthat Islamophobia and Antisemitism are in essence precisely the same thing as racism. They’re both designed to humanise, and those that espouse any of them consider their victims to be less than human.

It doesn’t matter whether the hatred is based on race, religion or sectarianism. Four triggers, same final destination. Whenever that hatred manifests itself in violence, there’ll be return passengers that now have a reason to hate. It’s a depressing self-perpetuating cycle and I say that as an observer, not a poor cunt that has to live with it or die because of it."…

And that is to some extent my point. I fail to understand how someone can accept that the State of Israel can exist in its homeland and then still say they are anti Zionist, when Zioniism was about establishing their homeland full stop. Any twisting of the phrase is a pseudo intellectual attempt to not appear racist, but as so often with extreme ends of politics people in these bubbles are blind to their own racism.

what I have read about what Livingstone said is limited, but he seems to be making a very narrow point that at one period prior to the Second World War, Nazi Germany and Zionists spoke about sending German Jews to a homeland. Yes, but the trouble is Livingstone tries to make it sound as if those talks justify anti.Zionism. Not true. Livingstone hates the state of Isreal, he would love Hamas to destroy it, so by the definitions above he is truly a repugnant racist character.

must go now, will pick up the debate later when I finish my working day amongst my Arab friends in Riyadh.

The joy of this subject is that someone can post sense and then include a sentence like this

“especially as others have said, after all the persecution they endured during the early 20th century”

So that there is an implied acceptance that special case must be applied.

And yet nobody then argues “especially as others have said, after all the persecution they endured since the late 1940’s” in order to criticise actions taken in their name.

In a Democracy, the People take responsibility to Vote and hence take responsibility for the actions of the Government they elected.

Watching from afar, the circular anti-senitism argument gets awfully close to becoming offensive to the Muslims that had their homeland stolen from them.

Mainly supported by the actions of the British

Never a winnable argument, unfortunately.

Originally posted by @Positivepete

And that is to some extent my point. I fail to understand how someone can accept that the State of Israel can exist in its homeland and then still say they are anti Zionist, when Zioniism was about establishing their homeland full stop.

Zionism was a political ideoology with the aim of securing a homeland. The Balfour Declaration is seen as the point where Palestine was recognised as the intended destination. That wasn’t the only thing that was recognised.

His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine , or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country

The declaration is pretty explicit on the subject Jewish settlement not affecting civil rights of non-Jewish communities. You could argue that Israel as implemented has fallen far from these values.

Perhaps those Israelis you refer to no longer feel that the trade is worth the moral and psychological burden. We certainly know that feeling here, Iraq being a prominent example, the Empire being one from earlier in the past. I acknowledge it’s big part of shaping the Britain we have today, but I don’t automatically condone everything done to achieve it, and nor should I.

In the abstract, you’re asking if it’s possible for a child to reject his or her parents. It’s not just possible. It’s both inevitable and essential for advancement.

Any twisting of the phrase is a pseudo intellectual attempt to not appear racist, but as so often with extreme ends of politics people in these bubbles are blind to their own racism.

I completely agree, would reject any notion that’s happening here, but think the remark totally appropriate within the context of the recent Labour rumblings this week.

I’ve gone to lengths to discuss this subject delicately, respectfully and hopefully, some clarity. I was mortified to read a post where I’d written “humanise” instead of “dehumanise”, completely shifting the meaning.

what I have read about what Livingstone said is limited, but he seems to be making a very narrow point that at one period prior to the Second World War, Nazi Germany and Zionists spoke about sending German Jews to a homeland. Yes, but the trouble is Livingstone tries to make it sound as if those talks justify anti.Zionism. Not true. Livingstone hates the state of Isreal, he would love Hamas to destroy it, so by the definitions above he is truly a repugnant racist character.

Fuck me, Ken is going to busy in the libel courts if he fancies it.

I doubt that you have a credible source for these wild allegations given that you didn’t believe reading the words that have caused such offence was particularly important.

Can you either provide some justification for those clear statements or retract them, ta? One thing you might learn from Blairite MPs is to be a bit more circumspect if libel is a risk.

None of them, save Mann, have had the balls to say what you just did. There’s a reason for that.

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Originally posted by @pap

https://youtu.be/0E70BwA7xgU

Unfortunately, as respected a journalist as Peter Oborne is, the entire contents have been debunked because Verballs copy and pasted some of the comments from the YouTube video.

That obviously invalidates the entire video.

Shit. That’s my extreme sarcasm budget gone for the month.

I was about to post the same retort on SWF (obviously with a few fucktards thrown in and a query as to whether Jezza has been fingering Verbal’s Mrs). Unfortunately I’m all posted out.

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Maybe the way forward is for the Labour Party to split so that there is a clear choice between the Left and the Blairites? I appreciate that the Tories would love that to happen in terms of a weakened Labour vote in the polls overall, but at the moment the internal fighting is doing Labour no favoures and is letting Cameron get away with all sorts.

Originally posted by @Goatboy

I was about to post the same retort on SWF (obviously with a few fucktards thrown in and a query as to whether Jezza has been fingering Verbal’s Mrs). Unfortunately I’m all posted out.

Worry not, he’ll see it.

I was about to write a florid comparison with a beloved and long lived family pet that can no longer perform the same tricks, but that’s really providing him with far too much credit. Same tricks, aimed at different targets. And they’re not all perceived to be as mental as me :lou_sunglasses:

I think he’s been the same all along, really - and trying to pin the AS tag on someone was a trick he often employed. I used to engage him a lot over there (here too). He flat out asked me if I was an antisemite. His rationale for doing so was because conspiracy theories appear on Neo-Nazi websites, which isn’t too different from how he tried to dismiss the Oborne video.

People thought he was alright because he’d take on prominent targets, often very amusingly. I used to chat with him via PM about my Pakistani family. As soon as I stuck up for that John Smith fella on the conspiracy thread, I saw a completely different side to him. Thought he might have reformed in the early days of Sotonians. Obviously not.

I liked your theory, btw, probably because it’s the first one I’ve seen that is madder than mine.

I agree.

Sadly I currently have the shakes pretty bad right now, so down voted this by accident.

Sorry Fat boi you continue to be our #1 poster imo.

thanks KRG. I’m sure the other down vote must be for the same reason.

Found on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/SJHemus/status/727515847590305792

Nice from Evolve Politics :lou_sunglasses:

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Because they are stupid?

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Originally posted by @CB-Saint

Because they are stupid?

Family Fortunes score of zero.

Top answer is they’re not antisemitic.

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Bernie Sanders is a self-hating anti-semite

Yeah, never really gotten how that worked, Bear.

I haven’t met many self-hating racists either.

I used to knock about with a girl who was blk and who used to say she hated blk ppl, but I don’t know if she was really srs. She was daughter of drummer from sex pistols so i spose maybe she wasn’t full blk, bc he wasn’t, tho she looked full blk. Maybe she was Adopted. I think she’s Almost Famous now so don’t mention i said nothing it could turn into a Scandal.

she could have just been making up being the daughter of the drummer. Or maybe she blacked up like that American woman.

are you suggest bernie sanders ain’t really Jewish?

is this the one that makes Kosher Fried Chicken?